Emma's Passenger Page

[augusta]

I was on Ancestry.com and stumbled across Emma Borden on a passenger list. It is hard to read, but the info is typed under the copy of the original page.

This is from a ship named Cymric, which had departed from Liverpool, England. It was to arrive in Boston on October 14, 1906. Her full name, Emma Lenora Borden, is given and is written on the second line. Her birth year is estimated at 1851, which is correct. Her age is given as 55 years old.

This sounds like her trip to Scotland? A postcard has been around for a long time that she mailed to a friend while she was there.

[Allen]

Very very cool Augusta!

[DJ]

Did Emma leave town after she left Maplecroft because she had discovered that Lizzie was blabbing secrets, and she (Emma) didn't want to be around for the big fallout in F.R.?

That is: L.B. admits truth?

[augusta]

Good one, DJ. I used to think that Emma left Lizzie (1905) because of her relationship to Nance O'Neil. But with 'Parallel Lives' coming out, and there being hints that we may see in there that Lizzie was not gay, that might not be a possible answer. Whatever the reason for it, it was serious enough that Emma went to the Rev. Buck, and he told her she should move out. I don't know if Emma would have told your theory to Reverend Buck (in my church the pastor there said that it is not proper to say "Reverend ____", but to say/write "the Reverend ______". He said, "You don't say "Honorable" to a judge, do you?" I guess "reverend" has always been an adjective. I still say it, though. After all the years before I became a solid church goer, I always said it - and you hear it on tv all the time and others say it. It feels weird to say it the "correct" way - if that is correct. I'd be interested to know what y'all think about that issue.).

Anyway, I think that anything is possible with this case. If it were me as Lizzie and I didn't do it, and my friends that had stuck by me before and after wondered who really did it, I think it would depend on who did it if I'd tell or not. It'd be awfully hard for me to keep mum about it. But Lizzie had that staunch New England way about her (unless 'Parallel Lives' shows us otherwise).

I think Lizzie would have had to know who did it. Maybe she was starting to tell, or talked about wanting to to Emma. If Lizzie knew the person, I think it's a fair guess that Emma knew. I would think, tho, that Emma went to the Rev. Buck with something else, tho. Really interesting thought, tho, DJ. Maybe you hit the nail on the head.

Glad you enjoyed the post, Allen. A lot of people on Ancestry.com have made 'family trees' with Lizzie.

[augusta]

Sorry. Double post.

[augusta]

Sorry. Triple post.

[DJ]

Augusta,

The trip to Scotland was probably tied into Lizzie's behavior, some way or another. Either Emma feared a scandal brewing, or maybe she wanted Lizzie to "miss" her, to "beg her back"? Maybe both.

How torn up was Lizzie by Emma's departure? How hard did Lizzie try to get her to return?

Anyway, Emma may have gone to the Rev. Buck about one issue, while secretly being much more concerned about another.

The more I think about it, the more Emma probably feared a scandal. How convenient it would be for her to be overseas.

If she just wanted to get out of town, she could have goine to Fairhaven (ha, ha), or to visit Uncle John's farm in Iowa (ha, ha, ha).

It's pretty drastic to head overseas.

[Harry]

Here's her ship.

[augusta]

Great one, Harry! Thanks for sharing! You've really been thinking about this one, DJ. Very, very interesting thoughts. Emma going away fearing a scandal seems to fit in with what we know of her character. True, she could have told the Rev. Buck only part of the story. Supposedly he told her she must move out. Was maybe just hanging with theatre people such a bad thing back then that just that might have caused the rift? And maybe Emma said, "It's me or THEM, Lizzie," and Lizzie picked "them"?

I do wonder why both Borden sisters seemed to like Scotland so much.

[augusta]

Great one, Harry! Thanks for sharing! You've really been thinking about this one, DJ. Very, very interesting thoughts. Emma going away fearing a scandal seems to fit in with what we know of her character. True, she could have told the Rev. Buck only part of the story. Supposedly he told her she must move out. Was maybe just hanging with theatre people such a bad thing back then that just that might have caused the rift? And maybe Emma said, "It's me or THEM, Lizzie," and Lizzie picked "them"?

I do wonder why both Borden sisters seemed to liked Scotland so much.

[DJ]

Thanks, Harry, for the ship's picture-- certainly a far cry from those "Caribbean cruise line" monstrosities.

Thanks, too, for the clarification on Rev. Buck in the other thread.

If Emma sought out Mrs. Buck's advice, perhaps she was looking for others to rubber-stamp her decision to ditch Lizzie--

perhaps along the lines of-- "Oh, even the Reverend's wife agrees with me."

Emma seems to have been the type to have sought out the approval of "social arbiters."

[augusta]

I hope there is something in 'Parallel Lives' - a note between the sisters after their split in 1905. That would be so cool.

Emma was so quite, that we know of, DJ. Yeah, I would agree with you that she really seemed to mind a possible scandal. It's like she went out of her way to be unnoticed. The black she always wore. Mourning didn't last that long for a parent, I don't think.

[patsy]

Interesting idea that it may have been just to get away from an inevitable scandal if Lizzie was talking too much or implying that she would speak out about some of their secrets.

I thought it may have had something to do with Nance and Lizzie's lifestyle in general which may not have been up to Emma's approval. Somehow I have the idea that Emma was almost puritanical in her manner and beliefs. I wasn't thinking of a gay implication but more just that Lizzie was getting too "wild." Hahaaa

Nice to see the picture of the ship to go with Augusta's manifest find. Thanks for sharing all of this and the picture.

[augusta]

Writings on Lizzie always seemed to point Nance O'Neil and the "week long" party Lizzie threw at Maplecroft (a 'week long' party??). I had no other reason to believe in something else, and what I read years ago did not encourage a reader to think of other possibilities. It would be nice to know. To really know.

[stargazer]

I would loved for Lizzie to have held seances at Maplecroft. That could rile Emma, too. Imagine a group of Bohemians trying to contact Andrew, and Abby. I wonder if Lizzie ever took a glass of wine in her life ? maybe one of the women or men danced around in silk scarves, and nothing else. That's more interesting than worrying about town gossip. May as well go for broke ! Maybe Lizzie enjoyed a wild threesome, who knows ?