A question of cruelty

[Franz]

There are many female killers in the history. But I would like to know if there are any other murders committed by women whose cruelty is similar to that of Borden case. Poison, pistol, knife, etc., can’t be compared with axe or hatchet, and all those blows in Mr. and Mrs. Borden’s head!

To be honest, it’s fairly difficult for me to imagine that a woman, Lizzie or Bridget, or anyone else, could commit such a cruelty (even though I don't deny the possibility).

[Smudgeman]

I guess you haven't heard of the Jodi Arias case that just ended here in the states. She was convicted of brutally murdering her boyfriend out of jealousy. She shot him, stabbed him multiple times, then dragged his body to a shower and left. Sara Johnson murdered her parents with a high powered hunting gun in Idaho over a boyfriend, Aileen Wournos was a serial killer, there are many other cases of women committing violent, heinus crimes. I believe that when Lizzie's poison idea didn't work so well, she had to resort to any means to get the results she wanted.

[Franz]

Hello Smudgeman, thank you for your information.

But axe or hatchet are really something different from poison, pistol, gun, knife, etc. And in 1892, a woman belonging to the upper class like Lizzie, all those horrible blows…

[Yooper]

I think most women would likely think of poison as the first option as a means to murder. If poisoning was not an option, what would be the next best method? A gun of any type might be unnecessarily loud and call attention to the murder, so a double murder with a firearm in the Borden case is not a choice. Firearms call for a degree of proficiency and familiarity which many women did not have at the time. Killing with a knife required close proximity and either surprise or the means to overpower the victim. This also might require a degree of expertise not gained through using a knife for ordinary kitchen tasks. A hatchet might be the best choice if poison was not an option. Arms-length from the victim is optimally required, the ability to incapacitate as well as kill quickly is a plus, and most people regardless of gender had some familiarity with hatchet use at that time. If she wanted them dead, she had to do whatever she had to do.

[DJ]

At least two women were tried for murder by ax (not hatchet, but ax) in the U.S. prior to Lizzie.

However, these two were tried for killing their husbands. One was acquitted; one was hanged.

Please Google "Becky Cotton" of South Carolina and "Frankie Steward Silver" of North Carolina, Franz, for more information.

[twinsrwe]

... Please Google "Becky Cotton" of South Carolina and "Frankie Steward Silver" of North Carolina, Franz, for more information.

DJ, you beat me to the murder committed by Frances Stewart Silver. Hope you don't mind, but I pulled some basic information from the internet...

Frances Stewart Silver (Born between 1810 and 1813; Died July 12, 1833) was hanged in Morganton Burke County, North Carolina, USA, for the murder by ax of her husband Charles. ...

On December 22, 1831, Charles Silver, only nineteen at the time, was hacked to death with a hatchet and dismembered in the cabin he shared with his wife and their daughter Nancy, who was 13 months old at the time. Charles is buried in three separate graves in the Silver family cemetery behind the Kona Baptist Church in Kona, Mitchell County, North Carolina. The dismembered parts of Charles's body were not discovered all at once, and so they were buried piecemeal as they were found; this accounts for the existence of three separate graves. ...

Shortly after the murder, suspicion fell on Charles's wife Frankie. Barely 18 at the time of her husband's death, Frankie was tried, swiftly convicted and sentenced to death for the murder. ...

Frankie was hanged on July 12, 1833. As she was led to the gallows, Frankie tried to make a final statement, but her father drowned her out by shouting "Die with it in you, Frankie!" What exactly she planned to say remains a mystery to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Stewart_Silver

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... id=8567288

[twinsrwe]

There are many female killers in the history. But I would like to know if there are any other murders committed by women whose cruelty is similar to that of Borden case. Poison, pistol, knife, etc., can’t be compared with axe or hatchet, and all that blows in Mr. and Mrs. Borden’s head!

To be honest, it’s fairly difficult for me to imagine that a woman, Lizzie or Bridget, or anyone else, could commit such a cruelty (even though I don't deny the possibility).

Well, Franz, check out the following web site that I found online:

http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/201 ... -with.html

[Smudgeman]

I just remembered another axe murderess "Candy Montgomery" who murdered her friend Betty Gore over a cheating husband. Her bloody fingerprints were found at the murder scene, yet oddly enough, the jury let her free. That story always bothered me, what a stupid jury, bought into that something in her childhood memory made her snap.
Then of course lets not forget the Charles Manson muderers Susan Leslie, and Patricia. They used knifes and forks to stab their victims. So, the idea of Lizzie swinging the hatchet is not too hard for me to imagine!
Great link twinsrwe!

[twinsrwe]

... Great link twinsrwe!

Thanks, Scott, I'm glad you checked it out.

[Franz]

Hello DJ and twinsrwe. Thank you for your information. You are great!

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome, Franz.

[DJ]

Thanks for taking the ball and running with it, Twinsrwe!

A further word or two on Becky Cotton, who lived in the Old Edgefield District (now broken up into multiple counties, including Edgefield County) of South Carolina. Many legends surround her, including a famous local ghost story; however, I spoke at length with the curator of the Edgefield County Archives this past fall, concerning Becky Cotton. As it would happen, the curator had just dramatized the story, according to what she knew to the be the solid facts of the case, of which she informed me.

First, this was a famous case in the annals of early America. Becky was even denounced in a pamphlet, "The Devil in Petticoats," by Parson Weems, who gave us the story about George Washington and the cherry tree.

Becky's father was being pursued by several men over some dispute, and it was clear that his pursuers intended to kill him over it.

He was hiding in Becky's house when these men came for him; however, Becky's husband did nothing to defend her father, who was in fact killed.

Becky was so upset with her husband that, soon afterward, she took an ax to him while he was asleep in their bed.

With the aid of her brother, she deposited the body in a pond-- however, the body was discovered by a local slave while Becky's husband was still recognizable, and while it was evident that he hadn't died from drowning. Otherwise, Becky might have gotten away with the mysterious disappearance of her husband.

She was charged with murder and tried, but she enchanted the (of course) all-male jury, one of whose members fell in love with her, and they were married.

However, Becky's brother knew the absolute truth of her actions. One day, when she was out and about on the town sqaure, he rode his horse up close enough to bash her head in with a rock. Thereafter, he left the state to escape prosecution.

Some versions of Becky's biography have her killing other husbands; however, the archives curator stated the above account is closest to the facts.

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome, DJ.

That is quite an interesting tale! I have a couple of questions:

So, Becky was not convicted for killing her husband?

What did the curator say about the famous local ghost story? Is the ghost that of Becky’s husband?

[twinsrwe]

DJ, I found a copyright photo of "The Devil in Petticoats" Legend Marker. It follows the curator's account of the Becky Cotton Legend, except where her father was hiding in her house, when pursuers came to kill him. It also does not mention that her bother aided her in depositing her husband's body in a pond.

Check it out:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/auvet/5195255586/

[DJ]

Good find, Twinsrwe!

The piece does refer to Becky's motive being her disgust at her husband's cowardice-- what the curator said about the husband's lack of aid to his father-in-law jibes with that. I could see that as a motive for murder.

Well, the brother sympathized with Becky to a point-- after all, their father was killed, and Becky's husband did nothing to stop the act. However, as the printed account indicates, the brother came to fear for his own life, because he knew the truth-- that is, that she did in fact commit murder, because he was an accessory after the fact.

He probably thought, with good reason, that Becky could bash his head in with a rock!

Oh, the ghost story: Unearthly cries are said to emanate from the pond in which Becky deposited her husband. It's thus a popular stopping point for ghost tours and Halloween jaunts, especially as it's in the town limits of Edgefield and not difficult to access. In any event, it is the spot where a murdered body was dumped and later discovered.

[NancyDrew]

I am impressed with the responses here. My own 2 cents:

Given the right set of circumstances, anyone is capable of anything. Of course this was a shocking crime. Of course we cannot imagine a genteel church-going woman hacking her father and step-mother to death. (Maybe that is what she was counting on.)

It doesn't matter...the human race is ripe with horrible, deviant, perverse behavior. And sometimes from someone you'd least expect.

Franz...your profile indicates you are from Italy. Have you ever been to the U.S.? Specifically, to New England? The women here are a hearty sort. And the 1800's? Forget about it (yup, I'm Italian-American...can you tell? )

[twinsrwe]

Good find, Twinsrwe!

Thanks, DJ.

… The piece does refer to Becky's motive being her disgust at her husband's cowardice-- what the curator said about the husband's lack of aid to his father-in-law jibes with that. I could see that as a motive for murder.

I can see that as a motive, too. She may have solely blamed her husband for her father’s death, instead of placing the blame on the killer(s), who were actually responsible. Although, I do have to wonder if there really was anything her husband could have done to stop the killer(s). Perhaps there wasn’t anything he could have done and Becky just felt that there was.

… Well, the brother sympathized with Becky to a point-- after all, their father was killed, and Becky's husband did nothing to stop the act. However, as the printed account indicates, the brother came to fear for his own life, because he knew the truth-- that is, that she did in fact commit murder, because he was an accessory after the fact.

He probably thought, with good reason, that Becky could bash his head in with a rock!

I totally agree!!!! However, he could have simply left town and never returned, instead of killing his sister and then leaving town. I wonder if he ever went to trial for murdering her?

Being disgusted to the point of murdering a person must have run in the family; Becky killed her husband due to her disgust of his cowardice – Stephen killed his sister due to his disgust of her lack of remorse and convinced he would be her next victim.

… Oh, the ghost story: Unearthly cries are said to emanate from the pond in which Becky deposited her husband. It's thus a popular stopping point for ghost tours and Halloween jaunts, especially as it's in the town limits of Edgefield and not difficult to access. In any event, it is the spot where a murdered body was dumped and later discovered.

Thanks, DJ! I was wondering about the ghost story and what it was all about.

Funny why John Cotton would haunt the pond in which Becky and Stephen dumped his body, instead of haunting the bedroom where she bashed his head in with an axe.

[twinsrwe]

I am impressed with the responses here. …

Thanks, Robin! This thread has become very intriguing.

…Given the right set of circumstances, anyone is capable of anything. Of course this was a shocking crime. Of course we cannot imagine a genteel church-going woman hacking her father and step-mother to death. (Maybe that is what she was counting on.)

It doesn't matter...the human race is ripe with horrible, deviant, perverse behavior. And sometimes from someone you'd least expect.

You are absolutely right. We never know what may put any one of us over that edge.

[twinsrwe]

When I click on the above link I provided for the Legend Marker, it comes up with big black bold words across the middle stating what the marker is titled and the left hand side of the marker is covered with something that hides part of the contents of the marker – does this happen for anyone else?

If so, double click on the following tinyurl.com link for an unobstructed view of the marker.

http://tinyurl.com/mh2pjbx
[Open in new window]

[Franz]

The women here (New England) are a hearty sort.

You mean, the people of New England are hearty, or... only the women?

I am a Chinese living in Italy and discussing in English the Borden case with American forum members. What an experience!

I have never been in US, I hope that one day I can have opportunity to go to there, and...pass a night in the guest room of the Borden house? Who knows?

[NancyDrew]

Franz: What a delightful combinations of cultures! I guess I meant the women of New England...cold winters and all that. No Southern belles here.

I've been to the Lizzie Borden house several times; have yet to spend the night. I became fascinated with the case when the tv movie starring Elizabeth Montgomery was originally shown in the 1970's. Then too, my mother's sister claimed that one of the antique bed's she owned belonged to Lizzie Borden after she moved to Maplecroft (I have no idea if this is really true or not.) That also piqued my interest.

How did you come to live in Italy? I'm Italian-American; my grandparents were born in Arce....it has always been my dream to visit there some day.

Well, it's 10:35 pm here, and I'm sick as a dog (I could call it "summer complaint" since it's almost summer, and I AM complaining, but in truth, it's just a bad cold...no mutton!) so I'll say Buona Notte..

[Franz]

Arce is not far away from Rome.

[NancyDrew]

Yes, I know. I have a friend who went there went once. Small town; a couple of B&B's we could stay at. I still have relatives living there.

Were you born in Italy?

[SallyG]

In all honesty, I think a woman, given the right circumstances, is just as capable as a man of committing a hatchet murder! Maybe even more so if she is running on pure emotion, as it seems Lizzie was!

[NancyDrew]

It IS out of place though...for her time (Victorian) her gender (women usually choose poison) and her personality (reserved).

But seriously, every time there is a horrific murder and the perp is caught, don't the neighbors and friends always say "gee, he/she was so quiet, such a nice person...I would never have guessed in a million years they could do something like this..."

[Allen]

When it comes to female killers many of them have gone the route of poison that's very true. It's a less hands on weapon. You can do away with someone without any fight or struggle, and you don't even get your hands dirty. I'd say this weapon is mostly chosen by woman because many of the female poisoners used it to murder men. Poison renders the more diminutive size and strength of a woman vs. man to a moot point. And let's face it poisons were so easy to come by back then. But it also takes patience to watch someone die slowly of poison. It does not always work in a one dose and they are dead scenario. Some female poisoners have been known drag it out unnecessarily so they can enjoy watching their victim suffer. Poisoning could take time. Maybe time Lizzie felt she didn't have. Poisoning also takes a very cold heart. I'd say just as cold as someone who swings a hatchet. I think if someone could conceive of killing another person in any manner to begin with that no means is ultimately out of the realm of possibility. You want them dead. I do not agree that Lizzie had a reserved personality. From all accounts I've read Lizzie was more outspoken and prone to speak her mind, especially when she didn't get her way, than she was reserved.