Morse's comments in witness statements

[Aamartin]

in John Fleet's witness statement, he states (on pages 3 and 4 in my printed out copy) that JVM asked if he suspected that the murderer could have been concealed in the house all night, Fleet replied that he did not suspect that and John went on to state that it was very strange that this could be done in the day time in the heart of the city...

The statement reads 'Mr Morse asked afterwards'...

I wonder, how much afterwords? After what? After Fleet had questioned him or sometime later in the day?

If it was at a point later in the day-- what make John think to ask?

[Steveads2004]

That's a very interesting thing for JVM to have asked. He slept in the Guest Room, did he hear or see something that made him think a person may have been there all night? What time did Lizzie come in from her visit? Could she have had secret company overnight??

[Yooper]

I expect Morse asked about the intruder being concealed in the house all night on August 4th, and sometime after the initial interview. Fleet's notes are dated August 4th for the exchange. Morse was apparently still baffled by the thought of an intruder as were several other people, it probably hadn't crossed his mind that Lizzie might have done it. I doubt that Morse saw or heard anything suspicious, if he did, he didn't mention it. I think Lizzie returned from Alice's somewhere around 9 pm the night of the 3rd. If she had brought anyone in with her, Andrew and Morse would likely have seen or heard two people ascending the stairs, they were in the sitting room until about 10 pm. If Lizzie had any company, they would have been brought into the house much earlier than the evening of the 3rd.

[patsy]

Ugh the thought of someone hiding in the house all night is so creepy. Maybe under Morse's bed and that's why Abby was down on her knees beside the bed. I don't really think that at all just rattling on here.

He may have asked that thinking that since Bridget had to unlock the door no one could have got in during the day, but maybe it was possible the evening before for some reason. Just a thought.

[Steveads2004]

John Morse had to have been a key player in this. I remember one of the things that rang so true about Arnold Brown's book was the way he had JVM in the middle of setting up the meetings between Andrew & William etc. The details we don't know yet, but Morse had some role as a middleman in some sort of plan, whether transfer of property, a will, a meeting whatever. Then it all went bad and Lizzie had to cYA to protect the estate. So she rose to the occasion, like her father would have, and saved the $$$. The old folks were dead anyway, can't fix that, so protect the family fortune at all costs. Like father like daughter.

[snokkums]

in John Fleet's witness statement, he states (on pages 3 and 4 in my printed out copy) that JVM asked if he suspected that the murderer could have been concealed in the house all night, Fleet replied that he did not suspect that and John went on to state that it was very strange that this could be done in the day time in the heart of the city...

The statement reads 'Mr Morse asked afterwards'...

I wonder, how much afterwords? After what? After Fleet had questioned him or sometime later in the day?

If it was at a point later in the day-- what make John think to ask?

Can you imagine an intruder in the house all night long. My own take on that is that if that were the case, why not kill them all at night and leave? Let some unsuspecting person find the bodies.

[Steveads2004]

Snookums, good point. But to play devils advocate, what if there was no plan for murder or violence, but a meeting or exchange of some kind with an unknown?Might the unknown be allowed to hide if they had something other than murder planned in the morning?

[shakiboo]

Where would the person stay? Morse had the guest room, and of course the family members all were in their respective rooms. Bridget was in her room. Where would they hide? The barn, then becomes the logical place, and then could they sneak into the house, when let's say, Bridget was getting sick in the yard. Or possibly could one of the family gotten up earlier and let them in and then hid them in the house. Wasn't there mention that the hay in the barn looked possibly slept on?

[Yooper]

What sort of a meeting would require someone to hide in the house or on the premises for the night? I imagine someone might have hidden in Emma's room if there was no concern with Lizzie finding him. As it turns out, the best hiding place in the house was in the parlor the day of the murders, I don't know when anyone thought to look in there!

[shakiboo]

That's a good question Yooper! Wish I'd though of it! But I was too busy trying to figure out where they'd have hidden.

[Yooper]

I have to agree with Robin, if someone is going to hide in the house, why wait for daylight to commit the murders? If we assume Abby and Andrew were the only targets, why not kill them while they're sleeping and relatively defenseless? It would be a lot easier to escape undetected under the cover of darkness.

[SallyG]

If someone was hiding in the house at night, they would have had a devil of a time getting through those locked bedroom doors to kill anyone. Uncle John's statement was interesting in that he was almost suggesting that the murder was an inside job! I think Uncle John knew a lot more than he told...and I believe that he immediately assumed that Lizzie had committed the murders and he probably knew why she did. Lizzie was his niece and his sister's daughter, so he was not going to point the finger of suspicion at her, or tell what he knew, but I think he probably knew from the start what really happened.

[twinsrwe]

I also agree - someone hiding out over night to commit these murders in broad daylight doesn't make any sense.

I also think Uncle John knew exactly the who, what and why of Andrew and Abby’s deaths. I also believe Emma knew the entire story early on. However, neither one was willing to admit what they knew.

[Yooper]

There was only one door as a possible obstacle to an intruder targeting Abby and Andrew, the bedroom door. If the key remained on the mantle overnight, an intruder with some knowledge of the household could have pulled it off. The outside doors to the house were locked and bolted at night, the easiest time for an intruder to enter the house undetected would be during the daytime. If the intruder didn't care about the time of day relative to the murders, why not get it over with right away?

I think Morse, Emma, Alice, Mrs. Churchill, and Bridget put two and two together right off the bat. Think of it from the perspective of someone suddenly coming on the scene, what's wrong with this picture? Two individuals horribly murdered, two others left alive, and nobody saw or heard anything. Why were there not four murders?

[snokkums]

There was only one door as a possible obstacle to an intruder targeting Abby and Andrew, the bedroom door. If the key remained on the mantle overnight, an intruder with some knowledge of the household could have pulled it off. The outside doors to the house were locked and bolted at night, the easiest time for an intruder to enter the house undetected would be during the daytime. If the intruder didn't care about the time of day relative to the murders, why not get it over with right away?

I think Morse, Emma, Alice, Mrs. Churchill, and Bridget put two and two together right off the bat. Think of it from the perspective of someone suddenly coming on the scene, what's wrong with this picture? Two individuals horribly murdered, two others left alive, and nobody saw or heard anything. Why were there not four murders?

I think they knew that it was a good possibly that Lizzie did the deed, because you are right, one way in, one way out, and two living witness. Why leave two people to identify you? And I think that Lizzie knew that Bridget wasn't going say anything against her employer, even if she did help Lizzie clean up.

[Yooper]

It's important to note that they would have reached that conclusion in spite of the prevailing Victorian attitude that women didn't do such things, and especially wealthy, upper class women. It would have been a very stark realization to allow that conclusion, either in directly confronting the evidence, or possibly something about Lizzie which made her more likely as a candidate for suspicion than most.

[SallyG]

There was only one door as a possible obstacle to an intruder targeting Abby and Andrew, the bedroom door. If the key remained on the mantle overnight, an intruder with some knowledge of the household could have pulled it off. The outside doors to the house were locked and bolted at night, the easiest time for an intruder to enter the house undetected would be during the daytime.

But the key couldn't remain on the mantle overnight...they needed it to unlock and then relock the bedroom when they went to bed. Supposedly they left the key on the mantle during the day except when they needed access to the bedroom. When they went to bed, they more than likely left the key in the lock. You could position those old keys so that they were turned slightly and could not be pushed out of the lock from the other side, and the lock could not be picked open either. (I grew up in an old house with those old doors with skeleton key locks). If the old doors had box locks on the inside (if you know old houses, you know what I am talking about) there would also be a latch you could switch over to double lock the door from the inside. I think once Andrew and Abby were locked in their room at night, they were relatively secure. I don't think Lizzie, or anyone else for that matter, could get to them at night. Even if Lizzie wanted to do them in at night, they still had a lock on the other side of the connecting door between Lizzies room and the Bordens room. And she would have had to try and explain how an intruder got in the house through all those locks!!

No, I think she made the decision that it would be easier to get to them during the day. It would look more like an intruder came in through an unlocked door and killed them!

[Yooper]

You have a point if they locked themselves in the bedroom at night. That implies that they feared harm from someone in the household while they slept. The main doors to the outside were locked far more securely, and were most likely more substantially constructed than any interior doors. Anyone who could get in past one of the exterior doors would not likely have any difficulty getting through the bedroom door. Anyone who entered by breaking through a window didn't much care about making noise either and would likely have had enough determination to get through the bedroom door.

Killing them during the day allowed for others in the household to be somewhere else, it was then possible to kill them one at a time without being seen or heard.

[SallyG]

Thinking about it, I'm now not sure if they DID lock themselves in at night in their bedroom, but the way they kept the place locked up like a fort, it's probably likely that they DID lock their bedroom door at night! If someone did get in by breaking in and making noise, the household would be alerted. If someone kicked in the bedroom door, Andrew had his stick under the bead. He really was a bit paranoid about his safety, it seems. Was the neighborhood such that he needed to be so vigilant about safety and intruders? Or was it possible that he actually did have some fear of Lizzie doing something?

[Yooper]

The more I consider Andrew's personality, the more I can see him taking the attitude of; "Why put a lock on a door if you're not going to use it?" He may have been hard nosed enough in his business dealings to have reason to fear retribution.

[Franz]

in John Fleet's witness statement, he states (on pages 3 and 4 in my printed out copy) that JVM asked if he suspected that the murderer could have been concealed in the house all night, Fleet replied that he did not suspect that and John went on to state that it was very strange that this could be done in the day time in the heart of the city...

The statement reads 'Mr Morse asked afterwards'...

I wonder, how much afterwords? After what? After Fleet had questioned him or sometime later in the day?

If it was at a point later in the day-- what make John think to ask?

aamartin, the argument of your post is indeed one of those subjects that I want to discuss in my serial threads about uncle John’s behaviours.

What is most notable for me is the fact that Morse made his comments very soon after the murder. You know my theory: Morse organised the double murder. And I think he made these comments in order to protect not only Lizzie (and Bridget), but also his conspirator, the real killer. He suggested that the killer was an intruder, in order to protect Lizzie (and Bridget), meanwhile, he wanted to demonstrate the (apparent) impossibility of an intruder’s entering the house in the day-time, so he speculated an intruder entered the house during the night. I have a strong impression that probably Morse was trying to know the thoughts of the police and to confuse (misguide) them.

Certainly, all I said here is nothing but a conjecture.

[Darrowfan]

I'm new here, so bear with me if this has been addressed before. Wasn't there some controversy about whether Morse noticed anything unusual when he returned to the Borden home after the murders? In other words, by the time he returned, there must have been a great deal of activity around the home, but didn't he claim at one point that he "didn't notice" anything was wrong, that he stopped in the yard to gather some pears, or something like that?