From another point of view, always about the note and Morse

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:35 am

Ok. We have two possibilities: 1) Lizzie did it; 2) An intruder did it.

Let’s have a look beneath the second one. If the killer was an intruder and Lizzie innocent, she might have told a true note story (why would she have invented such a story if innocent), in other words, Abby did receive a note (if Abby didn’t lie). We know that no one came out to say to the authority that he / she was the author or the messenger of the note. Question: where did the note come from, if not from…the killer(s)? Beneath the hypothesis that an intruder killed the Bordens, I think the most probable explanation about that mysterious note should be that it was a part of the criminal plan.

So Abby received a note allegedly written by a friend who asked Abby to pay her a visit. And then, she told this to Lizzie and she told her as well that she would go to the store to buy something for the lunch. But we know that she was found dead afterwards in the guest room, with her house clothes. For the visit to her friend and for the shopping, why did Abby, before leaving the house, need to go into that guest room where Morse had just slept last night and where, if I understand correctly, Abby had already done the house chores about 9:00? And why was she killed just between the bureau and the bed, maybe the best place to hide a corpse? Considering the case always beneath the hypothesis that Lizzie was innocent, I hardly believe that Morse was not a part of the crime.

Any thoughts?

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:19 am

What do we have to support that Abby would be dishonest about a note? It is far more likely that if she did receive a note or was to lie about one-- she would tell Bridget, not Lizzie about it. (IMO)

Her household chores began on the first floor-- it isn't odd that she went upstairs at 9am to see to the guestroom. It isn't like she was going to do it while they had breakfast -- and perhaps John would need the room before setting out for the day.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:55 am

Franz wrote:Ok. We have two possibilities: 1) Lizzie did it; 2) An intruder did it.

Let’s have a look beneath the second one. If the killer was an intruder and Lizzie innocent, she might have told a true note story (why would she have invented such a story if innocent), in other words, Abby did receive a note (if Abby didn’t lie). We know that no one came out to say to the authority that he / she was the author or the messenger of the note. Question: where did the note come from, if not from…the killer(s)? Beneath the hypothesis that an intruder killed the Bordens, I think the most probable explanation about that mysterious note should be that it was a part of the criminal plan.

So Abby received a note allegedly written by a friend who asked Abby to pay her a visit. And then, she told this to Lizzie and she told her as well that she would go to the store to buy something for the lunch. But we know that she was found dead afterwards in the guest room, with her house clothes. For the visit to her friend and for the shopping, why did Abby, before leaving the house, need to go into that guest room where Morse had just slept last night and where, if I understand correctly, Abby had already done the house chores about 9:00? And why was she killed just between the bureau and the bed, maybe the best place to hide a corpse? Considering the case always beneath the hypothesis that Lizzie was innocent, I hardly believe that Morse was not a part of the crime.

Any thoughts?

Franz, I have read and re-read your theory many times. A man working with Morse delivers a note to the Borden house saying a friend is sick. Mrs. Borden puts it in her pocket, tells Lizzie about it, then two more men approach the front door, lure Mrs. Borden outside, one slips behind her, into the house, up to Morse's room. The other tells a tale of Morse wanting Mrs. Borden to go get his watch. Mrs. Borden goes up to get the watch, and is killed by the man who sneaked in. He grabs the note from her pocket, and hides for an hour and a half, sneaks downstairs, kills Mr. Borden, and leaves. That is your theory.

First, after reading all of the testimony, the front door was not used or even unlocked from the night before until Mr. Borden comes home, so you must move your whole sneaking part of the plan in to the side door. The middle "key only lock" was only used at night, and it was still locked from the night before when Bridget tried to let Andrew in at 10:30.

Second, How did the men know Mrs. Borden wouldn't immediately put her coat on and go to the sick friend? That is what I would do...Your whole plan hinges on Mrs. Borden reading the note, telling Lizzie, BUT not showing it to her, putting the note in her pocket where the killer could get it back, and then staying at home ignoring the sick friend. Too many coincidences.

Third, It was only 9:30, she HAD NOT finished her cleaning of his room. She was having more house-guests on Monday, and wanted the room tidy. She apparently was putting pillow cases on the pillows at the time of her killing.

Fourth, knowing that the night lock on the front door was never unlocked from the night before, the whole slipping in unnoticed part of your plan now entails the killer sneaking in the side door, running all the way through the kitchen, parlor, front hall, upstairs, and into the guest room UNSEEN by Lizzie or Bridget...absurd.

Fifth, IF men were going to try to lure Mrs. Borden away, they would have used the FRONT door, so Mrs. Borden would have unlocked the Night lock with a key to go outside, and it would have been UNLOCKED when Bridget later let Mr. Borden in later on. BUT Lizzie and Bridget both testified that it had been STILL LOCKED FROM THE NIGHT BEFORE when Bridget tried to let Andrew in. Bridget fumbled with it, cursed, Lizzie heard and laughed.

Lastly, Morse had no motive.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:24 am

PossumPie, this new thread of mine has nothing to do with my theory about Morse. Here I simply invited you to consider that, if Lizzie was innocent, 1) how to explain the origin of the note, 2) why Abby was killed in the guest room with her house clothes. All this has nothing to do with my theory about when, how and from where the intruder could have entered in the house.

I underlined more than one time, indeed, in this thread that we consider the case beneath the hypothesis that the killer was an intruder. And I am not the first, I am not the unique person neither who considers that the killer could be an intruder, right?

And, you said that you have read and re-read my theory many times. I wonder how did you read and re-read my theory. I don't want to offend you. But in my theory Morse had only two conspirators: one is the false messenger, the other one the real killer. Now let's read what you said about my theory:

"Franz, I have read and re-read your theory many times. A man working with Morse delivers a note to the Borden house saying a friend is sick. Mrs. Borden puts it in her pocket, tells Lizzie about it, then two more men approach the front door, lure Mrs. Borden outside, one slips behind her, into the house, up to Morse's room. The other tells a tale of Morse wanting Mrs. Borden to go get his watch. Mrs. Borden goes up to get the watch, and is killed by the man who sneaked in."

So, according to your understanding of my theory:

1) "A man working with Morse delivers a note to the Borden house" --- first conspirator;
2) "then two more men approch the front door...one slips behind her..." --- second conspirator;
3) "The other tells a tale of Morse wanting Mrs. Borden to go get his watch..." --- third conspirator.

I wonder: I said clearly in my theroy that Morse could have had two conspirators to help him, but why did you find three and from where did you find the third one?

In any case thank you for your interest about my theory. This is encouraging for me.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:51 am

Aamartin wrote:What do we have to support that Abby would be dishonest about a note? It is far more likely that if she did receive a note or was to lie about one-- she would tell Bridget, not Lizzie about it. (IMO)

Her household chores began on the first floor-- it isn't odd that she went upstairs at 9am to see to the guestroom. It isn't like she was going to do it while they had breakfast -- and perhaps John would need the room before setting out for the day.

1. Yes, Aamartin, one can certainly think, as you, that it is far more likely that Abby would tell Bridget, but what really happened could be that Abby had no time to tell Bridget nothing, because she was killed before that she could do so (sorry for my English). And she told Lizzie because before she went to the guest room she occasionally met her -- the last person to whom Abby spoke before she met her death in the guest room.

2. Yes, it isn't odd that she went upstairs at 9am to see to the guest room, but the death time of Abby is generally fixed at about 9:30. At that time she should have finished the house chores in that fatal room. So, when she received the note --- I repeat here that we are considering the case beneath the intruder hypothesis ---, what made Abby to go to the guest room, instead of going to her own room to change her clothes, and then, going downstairs from her room, searching Bridget, telling her that she would go out for a visit, etc... What, what made her to go in that guest room after receiving the note?

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:13 am

for me it's quite simple, there was no note.

9:30 a.m. Is pretty early to be completely finished with household chores, Abby did not have a Swiffer, a vacuum cleaner and all the things we have today that make cleaning less time consuming.

when you look at the time that John and Andrew left the home that morning that is a great deal of time between that and 9:30......

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:17 am

Aamartin wrote:for me it's quite simple, there was no note.

9:30 a.m. Is pretty early to be completely finished with household chores, Abby did not have a Swiffer, a vacuum cleaner and all the things we have today that make cleaning less time consuming.

when you look at the time that John and Andrew left the home that morning that is a great deal of time between that and 9:30......

Oh my dear aamartin, I repeat encore une fois that here we consider the case beneath the hypothesis that Lizzie was innocent. Do you mean that even Lizzie was innocent, there was no note? Why?

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:18 pm

Franz, if Lizzie were innocent, that means there WAS a note. Yet Mrs. Borden takes time to TELL Lizzie about the note, but not who was sick. Why would she be secretive about who it was who was sick? Wouldn't Lizzie want to know? What door was the note delivered to if the front door was still locked from the night before? How did the killer know Abby still had the note, and put it in her pocket? What if Abby had given the note to Lizzie or Bridget, then what would the killer have done? What if Abby had decided not to tell anyone about the note, what purpose would it have served? Why even bring a note into it? The only rational reason for Lizzie stating that there was a note, was to explain why Abby wasn't around.

FactFinder · Post by **FactFinder** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:43 pm

Franz, you are putting an intruder inside the house in the guest room ready to kill Abby sometime before 9:30. He would have had the opportunity to have already made his way up to the room and been in there waiting? When did this window of opportunity occur? This entails him getting past Bridget, Lizzie, Abby, and possibly Andrew depending on how early you want to put him inside the house. Bridget and Abby remained on the first floor except when Abby went upstairs to the guest room the first time to fix the bed and came back down. So the killer could not have been up there when Abby went up the first time around 9 o'clock. So he had to get inside after that. When in the world would an intruder have had time to sneak inside and be waiting in the guest room before 9:30 unseen by Bridget who was doing chores in the kitchen, Lizzie who had come down stairs by that time, and Abby herself who was also very much alive before she met her end in the guest room?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:49 pm

PossumPie wrote:Franz, if Lizzie were innocent, that means there WAS a note. Yet Mrs. Borden takes time to TELL Lizzie about the note, but not who was sick. Why would she be secretive about who it was who was sick? Wouldn't Lizzie want to know? What door was the note delivered to if the front door was still locked from the night before? How did the killer know Abby still had the note, and put it in her pocket? What if Abby had given the note to Lizzie or Bridget, then what would the killer have done? What if Abby had decided not to tell anyone about the note, what purpose would it have served? Why even bring a note into it? The only rational reason for Lizzie stating that there was a note, was to explain why Abby wasn't around.

Beneath the hypothesis that the killer was an intruder, we can certainly consider and discuss all these questions you made.

In any way I don't think that it was strange that Abby didn't tell Lizzie who this ill friend was, and I don't think it strange neither that Lizzie didn't ask her identity.

The last phrase you wrote seems to me that you are not considering the case beneath the hypothesis that there was an intruder. The intruder theory is one of the two magor opinions of the case --- with more less supporteds, it's true --- so it's worth considering many questions beneath this theory, right?

I want to be clearer: I say (admit): if Lizzie was guilty, she probably had invented the note story to explain why abby wasn't around. Just as you think so.

Now, I invent you to consider: if Lizzie was innocent, was the note story true? where did it come from? who wrote it? who delivered it? why wasn't it never found afterwards? and as you asked, what purpose would the note have served? etc.

Am I clear?

P.S.: PossumPie, you stated more than one time that you are not absolutely sure that Lizzie was guilty. But here you said: "The only rational reason for Lizzie stating that there was a note, was to explain why Abby wasn't around". Are you saying implicitly that the killer could not have been anyone else but Lizzie? Did I understand well what you mean? If I did, I permet me to ask you: are you absolutely certain, or aren't you absolutely certain that Lizzie was guilty?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:19 pm

Hi Franz, you asked us, your fellow members on this forum, to consider, from the point of view of Lizzie being innocent, (1) how to explain the origin of the note allegedly received by Abby, and (2) why Abby was killed in the guest room of the house in her house clothes. Please consider my response. (1) The origin of the note began in Lizzie Borden's thought processes as a way of postponing for a while any search for Abby by Andrew (or Bridget.) It would have been very inconvenient for Abby to have been found by her husband from Lizzie's point of view as she intended to kill her father. If Andrew had gone up to the guest room and found his dead wife he would have (a) called the police straight away and (b) in my opinion only, remember, would have known instinctively that his daughter may well have murdered her.
(2) Therefore, and please just consider this Franz, if the note only existed in Lizzie's mind, as a means to an end, then Abby would naturally have known nothing whatsoever about it and would have gone about her household duties that morning dressed in her house clothes. This apparently included putting fresh pillowcases on the bed in the guest room, a task which she may well have been doing, leaning over the bed, when she was killed.
If you believe in Lizzie's innocence, and I know you do, you could come up with a lot of theories about the note. But please remember, not one person ever came forward to state that they had sent it. Nor, even when Lizzie was on trial for her life, did either of John Morse's co-conspirators ever try to contact the authorities, even the one who only delivered the note you believed was sent.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:51 pm

Curryong wrote:Hi Franz, you asked us, your fellow members on this forum, to consider, from the point of view of Lizzie being innocent, (1) how to explain the origin of the note allegedly received by Abby, and (2) why Abby was killed in the guest room of the house in her house clothes. Please consider my response. (1) The origin of the note began in Lizzie Borden's thought processes as a way of postponing for a while any search for Abby by Andrew (or Bridget.) It would have been very inconvenient for Abby to have been found by her husband from Lizzie's point of view as she intended to kill her father. If Andrew had gone up to the guest room and found his dead wife he would have (a) called the police straight away and (b) in my opinion only, remember, would have known instinctively that his daughter may well have murdered her.
(2) Therefore, and please just consider this Franz, if the note only existed in Lizzie's mind, as a means to an end, then Abby would naturally have known nothing whatsoever about it and would have gone about her household duties that morning dressed in her house clothes. This apparently included putting fresh pillowcases on the bed in the guest room, a task which she may well have been doing, leaning over the bed, when she was killed.
If you believe in Lizzie's innocence, and I know you do, you could come up with a lot of theories about the note. But please remember, not one person ever came forward to state that they had sent it. Nor, even when Lizzie was on trial for her life, did either of John Morse's co-conspirators ever try to contact the authorities, even the one who only delivered the note you believed was sent.

I don't understand well. Were your answers made from the point of view of Lizzie being innocent?

FactFinder · Post by **FactFinder** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:54 pm

If Lizzie was innocent how would I explain the note? I'd say Abby told Lizzie she got a note to get out of the house for some unknown purpose without being asked any further questions. I wouldn't see it as a part of some criminal plot. But since I don't believe that Lizzie is innocent then I'd say everything Curryong said in his post sums up my opinion on the matter.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:27 pm

FactFinder wrote:If Lizzie was innocent how would I explain the note? I'd say Abby told Lizzie she got a note to get out of the house for some unknown purpose without being asked any further questions. I wouldn't see it as a part of some criminal plot. But since I don't believe that Lizzie is innocent then I'd say everything Curryong said in his post sums up my opinion on the matter.

Thank you FactFinder.

You said: "I'd say Abby told Lizzie she got a note...". If Lizzie was innocent, in your opinion, did the note physically exist? or just Abby told Lizzie so (in other words, the note could exist, and could not exist as well)? If by any chance you think the note did physically exist, you didn't answer from where it could come from, who wrote it, who sent it, why it was never found afterwards. Even one is absolutely convinced Lizzie being guilty, but beneath the contrary hypothesis, all these questions are worth to be considered (at least in my opinion).

You said: "Abby told Lizzie she got a note to get of the house for some unknown purpose..." But Lizzie testified that Abby told her that she was to go to pay a visit to a ill friend. By saying so do you mean that even if Lizzie was innocent, she partly lied in her testimony, by saying that Abby told her to pay a visit to a friend, and infact Abby didn't mention at all the purpose (in your opinion)?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:27 pm

Sorry Franz, if I believed in Lizzie's innocence and I think you can guess I don't, then as far as the note was concerned Lizzie was incredibly unlucky, as, apart from her own assertion of its existence, no trace was ever found of it, no person ever came forward to back her up to say I sent it, and no evidence of any conspiracy to send any such note via John Morse, any of his friends or any other person, was ever discovered. How much misfortune can one seemingly innocent person endure?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:51 pm

Curryong wrote:Sorry Franz, if I believed in Lizzie's innocence and I think you can guess I don't, then as far as the note was concerned Lizzie was incredibly unlucky, as, apart from her own assertion of its existence, no trace was ever found of it, no person ever came forward to back her up to say I sent it, and no evidence of any conspiracy to send any such note via John Morse, any of his friends or any other person, was ever discovered. How much misfortune can one seemingly innocent person endure?

Curryong, all of us have his / her personal opinion about the case, more precisely, about Lizzie's guilt or innocence. But meanwhile, I think we can discuss many aspects of the case closing our own opinion in a cupborad (forgetting it and give us a neutral point of view). Every one knows that I am more convinced of Lizzie's innocence. But if I were convinced of her guilt, I would consider all my questions as well. That's why I wrote in a previous post addressed to PossumPie that I admit that "if Lizzie was guilty, she probably had invented the note story to explain why Abby wasn't around. Just as you (PossumPie) think so."

I totally agree with you, indeed, about what you said here. That's why I said, in the original thread, that "I think the most probable explanation about that mysterious note should be that it was a part of the criminal plan." This could explain why no one declared afterwards as author or messenger of the note, and why the note was never found (conjecturing that the killer found it and took it away).

Yes, you are right, if Lizzie was innocent, she was incredibly unlucky about th note. I am pretty positive of having read Lizzie say something like: it (the note) would be always a mystery (for me). What a poor creature when she pronounced these desparate words!

Lizzie could be guilty, Lizzie could be innocent. If she was guilty, she was really incredibly lucky of not being convicted; if she was innocent, she was really incredibly unlucky to be accused (but fortunately acquited). Ca, c'est la vie!

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:01 pm

Mara Plays Devil's Advocate (hey -- my high school debate team were state champeens -- I can argue for or against any old thing you want):

The only reason we are talking about a note is that Lizzie told police that someone had delivered it to Abby. There is no evidence to back this up, even though Lizzie had what we would today call a "dream team" of lawyers with plenty of resources to use in identifying this delivery person. And, of course, no note was ever found. Let's say there wasn't a note at all, but that there had still been some sort of summons. Maybe Lizzie had misunderstood Abby, who maybe had said only that someone came to tell her (verbally, no note) that so-and-so was sick and would she please come for a visit later. Maybe Lizzie just imagined it was a note brought by a delivery person.

Okay, so then what? We still have someone coming to the house before Lizzie was up and about, coming either to the front door or the side one.

If the front, Abby would have had to open it, though it was locked. (We have no reason to think Bridget did this, or she would have testified that she did.) Did Lizzie have the key? We know it was the custom of the house for one of the daughters to lock up at night, but did they usually take the key upstairs or leave it in the entryway? This theory presupposes that the key was available to Abby in the entryway and that she used it to answer the door, and again to lock it -- which would have been a break from routine, but possible. We do know that the door was locked when Andrew returned. At this time, Bridget would have been either still in bed (unlikely) or getting the Borden kitchen ready for her day's work. Unless she was down cellar at the very time this front-door drama took place, she would surely have heard it. Since she didn't testify to that effect, we may assume she didn't. (Unless, of course, you want Bridget in on a conspiracy.)

If the messenger went to the side door, Bridget would very likely have either answered the door herself and relayed the message to Abby, or she would have witnessed Abby receiving the message. Again, no testimony to that effect.

Where does this leave us in our attempt to reconcile the "note" with an innocent Lizzie?

No messenger was ever identified. Unless you subscribe to Franz's theory of the messenger as lure, that's a pretty hard fact to ignore. So let's play with Franz's intruder theory.

As I understand it -- and I believe I understand it only a wee but differently from PossumPie (I love that name!) -- the messenger goes to the front door when Second Street is remarkably quiet. He may knock on the door or call out, but then backs onto the sidewalk out of some "respect for the property" that I believe we have already discussed as not being something that would typically occur to an American, even in those more formal days. But anyway, the idea is that Abby leaves the house in her housedress, in the early stages of breakfast and housework when she has not been well and leaving the door wide open behind her, and walks down the steps to talk to this messenger. If he doesn't hand her a note he at least delivers his message, while an accomplice comes from out of hiding somewhere and darts through the open door unnoticed, headed for the Guest Chamber. Abby goes back into the house none the wiser.

Why would this accomplice know to go to the Guest Chamber? Perhaps he was John Morse and that was his familiar staging area. Perhaps Morse, with his newly purchase hatchet (remember the evidence of flecks from a brand-new hatchet being found in the wounds?) was getting ready to murder Andrew later, but Abby surprised him. Whack! Then wait.

But no.. Lizzie knew about the messenger. We need time for Abby to tell Lizzie about the message, and Lazy-Bones wasn't up yet. Morse listens at the closed door, figures out Lizzie is up and has gone downstairs. He knows Andrew is out. (Don't ask me how. I'm just making this up as I go along.) After some time, he hears footsteps coming upstairs and figures it's Lizzie, since Abby lives, for all intents and purposes, in the back of the house and being a guy, he doesn't think about things like fresh pillowcases and where they come from. But the steps stop at the Guest Chamber door and someone enters. Abby! Oh noes! Whack!

Which leaves us with Lizzie assuming Abby has gone up to her room, dressed, and gone out, in spite of the fact that in order to go out, Abby would have had to go up the back stairs to change into her town clothes and no one saw her do that.

But all that aside, at some point, Morse the Intruder figures Andrew is home, probably hearing the little tussle at the door with Bridget, and maybe Lizzie's laughter just below on the stairs. He somehow manages to get downstairs, past Lizzie and Bridget, kills Andrew and escapes undetected.

I suppose it could be done. Really improbable but then, so are a lot of amazing things that we know really do happen, like blueberries and squillion-ton airplanes flying through the air. But the $64,000 question is why would Andrew do this? If anything, Andrew was more meal ticket to him alive than dead. Maybe he was crazy. And if that's enough of an answer for why Morse would kill Andrew and Abby, then why isn't it enough of an answer to nail Lizzie for the same acts?

Some people will do ANYTHING to avoid working on their taxes. And yes, yes I am one of those.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:29 pm

Hi, Mara. Thank you for your long post.

Indeed I posted this new thread with the intention to invite all fellows of the forum to consider some questions beneath the hypothesis that the killer was an intruder, all generally speaking, without any link with my theory for all its concrete and precise points.

But since you replied basing on (some aspects of) my theory, I will say:

1. You said that if Lizzie was innocent, she could have misundertood Abby, believing wrongly that she received a note. This was not impossible.

2. About the front door. In my theory, it was Abby who opened the locked front door in response to the messenger. At that moment, always in my theory, Bridget was in the barn, Lizzie in her room. I will certainly consider the side door as well, but for the moment I haven't any idea about it.

3. You asked "Why would this accomplice know to go to the Guest Chamber? Perhaps he was John Morse..." In my theory the real killer was not Morse, but his conspirator, who entered the house and went into the guest room to wait Abby, because Morse invented the watch (or something else) story to deceive Abby to go there, where she would be killed.

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:11 pm

In #2 above, you say Bridget was in the barn when this messenger brought Abby to the front door. In fact, Bridget had no reason to go to the barn that early in the day. She only went there after Abby asked her to wash the windows, to fetch equipment needed for that purpose, at which time Lizzie was already up and part of the discussion.

In #3, you suggest that Morse found a way to get Abby upstairs, where his conspirator -- who had just darted through the front door unnoticed and gotten upstairs, also unnoticed -- would be waiting to kill her. I have a few problems with that.

First, as far as Abby was concerned, Morse had been invited to come back for dinner after his errands, which, hours earlier, had taken him far enough away to require almost as much time to send someone off to deliver the watch (or other thing) to him as it would take for Morse to simply wait until he could get it himself at dinner. She might not have been a brilliant thinker, but this just doesn't strike me a something that would move her to action.

Second, since you don't place Morse himself at the scene of the crime, presumably the messenger would have conveyed Morse's request for Abby to find the left-behind watch or other thing for him, while presumably also handing her the note to go see a sick friend and then waiting there for her to do his bidding. Please remember that Abby was a very overweight woman and not young. She probably didn't move very fast. She wasn't feeling well and she was busy with chores. I fantasize this scenario of yours ending with Abby opening the door (assumming she could get at the key) and telling the messenger to scram.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:34 pm

I don't care how well built that house is-- I think-- even if stretching my imagination to Abby being lured out to the gate-- that she would have heard someone ascend the staircase. it's wooden, shoes were not dainty in those days and that door isn't far from the street

FactFinder · Post by **FactFinder** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:53 pm

Aamartin wrote:I don't care how well built that house is-- I think-- even if stretching my imagination to Abby being lured out to the gate-- that she would have heard someone ascend the staircase. it's wooden, shoes were not dainty in those days and that door isn't far from the street

Agreed. Not to mention the people still inside the house would have heard the noise as well.

FactFinder · Post by **FactFinder** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:55 pm

Franz wrote:
3. You asked "Why would this accomplice know to go to the Guest Chamber? Perhaps he was John Morse..." In my theory the real killer was not Morse, but his conspirator, who entered the house and went into the guest room to wait Abby, because Morse invented the watch (or something else) story to deceive Abby to go there, where she would be killed.

Abby knew where Morse was going. What could he need his watch for if he is visiting family who had a clock in their home. What could he possible send for that he would "need" as he was visiting family, when Abby also knew he brought absolutely nothing with him?

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:38 am

I have a lot of respect for Franz, he certainly thinks out a host of coincidences to get his imaginative theory off the ground. The problem is as I addressed in a previous post. When you look at something TOO closely, you can't see the patterns or 'big picture' A knock at the FRONT door would mean Abby unlocked all three locks (including the 'night lock' with a key) was lured by STRANGERS out of her safe doorway, down the front steps and out to the gate. Possible? perhaps. It would also mean someone sneaked past her, into the house, up the steps with Abby, Lizzie, and Bridget all not seeing him. Possible? perhaps. Abby would have then for some uncharacteristic reason RE-LOCK the night lock. Possible? perhaps. Then Abby would have had to run into Lizzie and tell her she got a note from a sick friend, but NOT mention their name. Possible? perhaps. Would she ever dare give a valuable watch to a total stranger? Possible? perhaps.

My problem is that I step back 10 giant steps from Franz's theory, and see so many wildly coincidental intricate things that had to work like clock-work for the plan to work, that I say "the simplest answer is usually correct" and that is NOT simple. He can defend to the end any one implausible element, we have argued about people on the street seeing someone sneak in, or seeing Abby open the front door. He has logical explanations for each, but they are IMPLAUSIBLE.

Franz, I am not 100% convinced of Lizzie's guilt, but that doesn't mean I have a logical alternative. IF Lizzie had NOTHING to do with their murders, than that brings up in my mind some irresolvable problems. I don't see Abby vaguely telling Lizzie that "a friend" was sick, and not "Mrs. Johnson the blacksmith's wife" was sick. I'm not trying to be sexist, but Women don't talk in generalities..."a sick friend" -- Women say "Do you know that nice Mr. Johnson? well apparently his sweet wife is sick. She was so nice to me last Christmas, I'm going to go help her this afternoon" Humans want to make personal connections. We drop someone's name in conversation, b/c it is nice when a person says "oh, I know her!" See, "a sick friend" is possible, but knowing human nature, it is IMPLAUSIBLE. Just like it is barely possible, that overweight sick and paranoid Abby would allow herself to be lured out of her house, down the walk, out to the gate leaving her door hanging wide open for some stranger to sneak into. Possible? sure, Probable? Not even a little bit...

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:00 am

Please Franz, I would really like to know what motive, in your opinion, John Morse had to want his brother-in-law and his wife Abby's deaths. Why would he conspire with others to have them killed and what hard evidence can you point to that would support this? I am puzzled and would really sincerely appreciate a good, concise explanation.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:52 pm

Hello everyone.

I repeat here that with this new thread I invite you to change your point of view and consider some questions beneath the hypothesis that Lizzie was innocent.
For example, I would like to hear some aamartin say: if Lizzie was innocent, I think that the note came from...; some Mara say: if the killer was and intruder, I would explain Abby's wearing her house clothes in this way...

Am I clear?

I prefer to talk about my theory and all its details in another place.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:08 pm

O.K., right!

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:46 pm

Franz, the ball was in your court. Let's hear why you think John Morse did it -- not how he did it, but why.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:00 pm

Oh I love you Mara. Good Sunday!

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:07 am

If Lizzie was innocent the note came from the killer

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:03 am

Aamartin wrote:If Lizzie was innocent the note came from the killer

Oh Aamartin, I love you too.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:35 am

Aamartin, you said that if Lizzie was innocent, the note came from the killer.

Very well. But would you like to continue? Who delivered it? the killer himself, or another one? Where was it delivered? when was it delivered? Why did the killer invent the note? What was the purpose? Why wasn't the note never found afterwards? And did this note have any link with the fact that Abby was killed in the guest room with her house clothes?...

Oh, so many questions and so exciting!

Good sunday!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:15 am

Yes Franz, we love you too! But I still want a clear, viable motive from you for John Morse wanting to kill his brother-in-law and wife.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:16 am

I can't speculate any further--- mainly because I don't have any ideas as how such a note could have ever existed, disappeared and why Abby would not have left immediately if she did receive a note. I just can't.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:03 am

IF there was an actual note, it would have been Fake and written by the killer.
-No person ever admitted that they wrote the note, that someone in their home was sick and wanted Abby's help, and with the notoriety of the case everyone in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts knew about the killings and the note.
-Every friend, family member and acquaintance of Abby was asked if they knew who wrote the note, or wrote it themselves. NOBODY did.
-If there were a note, it would have had to have been taken by the killer when they left, or burned by Abby without showing anyone. No one ever saw it but Abby
-The front door was still "night locked" so the messenger would have had to come to the back or side door without trying the front door.
-No "revenge killer" getting back at Andrew for some swindle would have bothered with a note. No "thrill killer who randomly picked that house would have used a note.
-A fake note would only have been needed if the killer knew that there would have been a long time between killings. No killer would have known that unless they had an intimate knowledge of the families habits,
THEREFORE
If there were an actual note...It was fake, written by the killer who had intimate knowledge of the family's habits and taken with them or destroyed.

If there were NOT a note, Lizzie lied about it for some reason.
or...Abby lied about being a note. For what possible reason? She could have easily said "I must go out on an errand" Why make up a wild lie???

FactFinder · Post by **FactFinder** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:54 am

Franz wrote:
FactFinder wrote:If Lizzie was innocent how would I explain the note? I'd say Abby told Lizzie she got a note to get out of the house for some unknown purpose without being asked any further questions. I wouldn't see it as a part of some criminal plot. But since I don't believe that Lizzie is innocent then I'd say everything Curryong said in his post sums up my opinion on the matter.
Thank you FactFinder.

You said: "I'd say Abby told Lizzie she got a note...". If Lizzie was innocent, in your opinion, did the note physically exist? or just Abby told Lizzie so (in other words, the note could exist, and could not exist as well)? If by any chance you think the note did physically exist, you didn't answer from where it could come from, who wrote it, who sent it, why it was never found afterwards. Even one is absolutely convinced Lizzie being guilty, but beneath the contrary hypothesis, all these questions are worth to be considered (at least in my opinion).

You said: "Abby told Lizzie she got a note to get of the house for some unknown purpose..." But Lizzie testified that Abby told her that she was to go to pay a visit to a ill friend. By saying so do you mean that even if Lizzie was innocent, she partly lied in her testimony, by saying that Abby told her to pay a visit to a friend, and infact Abby didn't mention at all the purpose (in your opinion)?

Franz Abby lying about a note to Lizzie, in my opinion, would not have played into the real killer sending the note. If Abby lied to Lizzie about getting a note I think the note was a fake. There never was a note. I think Abby may have been trying to leave the house for a period that would be greater than just going to the store to get the dinner. So she needed a reason to go out. Nobody saw the note. She didn't even bother to mention the friend she was going to visit because there really was no sick friend. Why would Abby do this? I think it might have had something to do with another property transfer or the making of a will. If Lizzie learned about either it could have put her plan for murder into immediate action to stop it. And Abby may have wanted to avoid any sort of confrontation about it until after the fact. Considering the unrest the half house incident caused in the household. I don't believe Morse was involved in the killings. What purpose would sending such a note serve to any killer? How would anyone know Abby would go to the guest room?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:40 pm

PossumPie wrote: ...
If there were an actual note...It was fake, written by the killer who had intimate knowledge of the family's habits and taken with them or destroyed.

PossumPie, in your opinion, and assuming that Lizzie had nothing to do with the double murdere --- this is always possible --- who could this killer have been, one with intimate knowledge of the family, as you said?

1. Emma (who organized)?

2. Bridget?

3. Morse (who organized)?

4. Or... even Dr. Bowen? He could have some knowledge about the routine of the Bordens, in my opinion.

5. Or some one else?

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:11 pm

Franz wrote:
PossumPie wrote: ...
If there were an actual note...It was fake, written by the killer who had intimate knowledge of the family's habits and taken with them or destroyed.

PossumPie, in your opinion, and assuming that Lizzie had nothing to do with the double murdere --- this is always possible --- who could this killer have been, one with intimate knowledge of the family, as you said?

1. Emma (who organized)?

2. Bridget?

3. Morse (who organized)?

4. Or... even Dr. Bowen? He could have some knowledge about the routine of the Bordens, in my opinion.

5. Or some one else?

Well, I am a firm believer in having a motive...not many people would risk the death penalty to kill two elderly people without any motive. Emma is the only one to have a KNOWN motive, but like I said, if someone wants to fantasize, even the Pope could have orchestrated it. The case ceases to interest me if I think about wild unproven ideas of Bridget, Morse, Dr. Bowen killing them. There is not ONE SHRED of evidence that any of them had a reason, so as soon as you begin making things up, I generally lose interest. You see how pulling people out of thin air serves no purpose. I've heard the one about an illegitimate son of Andrew, and several about Morse, but there is just NO EVIDENCE that there was an illegitimate son, or that Morse had anything but warm regard for Abby and Andrew. yea, people can drag his name through the mud and say he was "too close" to Lizzie, but again, there is no proof. If Lizzie were out of the speculation, I'd say Emma paid someone, told them of the layout of the house, the general routine, and went away for an alibi, though why she wouldn't bring Lizzie is beyond me.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:56 pm

FactFinder wrote: ...
Franz Abby lying about a note to Lizzie, in my opinion, would not have played into the real killer sending the note. If Abby lied to Lizzie about getting a note I think the note was a fake. There never was a note. I think Abby may have been trying to leave the house for a period that would be greater than just going to the store to get the dinner. So she needed a reason to go out. Nobody saw the note. She didn't even bother to mention the friend she was going to visit because there really was no sick friend. Why would Abby do this? I think it might have had something to do with another property transfer or the making of a will. If Lizzie learned about either it could have put her plan for murder into immediate action to stop it. And Abby may have wanted to avoid any sort of confrontation about it until after the fact. Considering the unrest the half house incident caused in the household. I don't believe Morse was involved in the killings. What purpose would sending such a note serve to any killer? How would anyone know Abby would go to the guest room?

Ok, I see, FactFinder: in your opinion, "Abby may have been trying to leave the house for a period that would be greater than just going to the store to get the dinner. So she needed a reason to go out.", And the note didn't exist.

Well, in this case, 1) when, from where, and how did the killer --- in our hypothesis it was not Lizzie --- enter the house and killed Abby in the guest room?

2) Abby, after lying to Lizzie in order to go out for a longer time "than just going to the store to get the dinner", as you conjectured above, why did she go into the guest room and unfortunately met the death there?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:14 pm

PossumPie wrote:
Well, I am a firm believer in having a motive...not many people would risk the death penalty to kill two elderly people without any motive. Emma is the only one to have a KNOWN motive, but like I said, if someone wants to fantasize, even the Pope could have orchestrated it. The case ceases to interest me if I think about wild unproven ideas of Bridget, Morse, Dr. Bowen killing them. There is not ONE SHRED of evidence that any of them had a reason, so as soon as you begin making things up, I generally lose interest. You see how pulling people out of thin air serves no purpose. I've heard the one about an illegitimate son of Andrew, and several about Morse, but there is just NO EVIDENCE that there was an illegitimate son, or that Morse had anything but warm regard for Abby and Andrew. yea, people can drag his name through the mud and say he was "too close" to Lizzie, but again, there is no proof. If Lizzie were out of the speculation, I'd say Emma paid someone, told them of the layout of the house, the general routine, and went away for an alibi, though why she wouldn't bring Lizzie is beyond me.

Thanks.

Me too, as you said, "I am a firm believer in having a motive...not many people would risk the death penalty to kill two elderly people without any motive." I totally agree with you.

The case remains unsolved. Why? I think the reason is that there were many things of the case unknown to us, and among them, there could be someones proving Lizzie's guilt, who knows?

We never found the weapon, but we are sure that a weapon was used to kill the Bordens. This weapon is unknown to us, but we know that it existed.

IF Lizzie were innocent, the Borden would have been killed by another person (or by some other persons). And this person would have had his motive, means and opportunity to kill, but ... unknown to us.

(Please keep in mind that I am always generally speaking under this thread.)

FactFinder · Post by **FactFinder** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:10 pm

Franz wrote:
FactFinder wrote: ...
Franz Abby lying about a note to Lizzie, in my opinion, would not have played into the real killer sending the note. If Abby lied to Lizzie about getting a note I think the note was a fake. There never was a note. I think Abby may have been trying to leave the house for a period that would be greater than just going to the store to get the dinner. So she needed a reason to go out. Nobody saw the note. She didn't even bother to mention the friend she was going to visit because there really was no sick friend. Why would Abby do this? I think it might have had something to do with another property transfer or the making of a will. If Lizzie learned about either it could have put her plan for murder into immediate action to stop it. And Abby may have wanted to avoid any sort of confrontation about it until after the fact. Considering the unrest the half house incident caused in the household. I don't believe Morse was involved in the killings. What purpose would sending such a note serve to any killer? How would anyone know Abby would go to the guest room?
Ok, I see, FactFinder: in your opinion, "Abby may have been trying to leave the house for a period that would be greater than just going to the store to get the dinner. So she needed a reason to go out.", And the note didn't exist.

Well, in this case, 1) when, from where, and how did the killer --- in our hypothesis it was not Lizzie --- enter the house and killed Abby in the guest room?

2) Abby, after lying to Lizzie in order to go out for a longer time "than just going to the store to get the dinner", as you conjectured above, why did she go into the guest room and unfortunately met the death there?

Sorry, Franz. I've tried to come up with a hypothesis as to how someone else might have gotten into the house to kill Abby and Andrew that morning. But I just can't come up with one that is solid enough in my opinion. Which is one of the reasons I lean towards Lizzie's guilt.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:26 pm

PossumPie wrote: ......
or...Abby lied about being a note. For what possible reason? She could have easily said "I must go out on an errand" Why make up a wild lie???

Very well said, PossumPie.

Could I borrow your words?

If Lizzie was guilty and must explain Abby's absence, why did she lie about being a note? She could have easily said: "Addy told to go to the store." Why make up a wild lie?

It seems to me that you don't believe Abby could have made up a wild lie. If so, why do you think that Lizzie could have done such a thing?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:27 pm

FactFinder wrote:
Franz wrote:
FactFinder wrote: ...
Franz Abby lying about a note to Lizzie, in my opinion, would not have played into the real killer sending the note. If Abby lied to Lizzie about getting a note I think the note was a fake. There never was a note. I think Abby may have been trying to leave the house for a period that would be greater than just going to the store to get the dinner. So she needed a reason to go out. Nobody saw the note. She didn't even bother to mention the friend she was going to visit because there really was no sick friend. Why would Abby do this? I think it might have had something to do with another property transfer or the making of a will. If Lizzie learned about either it could have put her plan for murder into immediate action to stop it. And Abby may have wanted to avoid any sort of confrontation about it until after the fact. Considering the unrest the half house incident caused in the household. I don't believe Morse was involved in the killings. What purpose would sending such a note serve to any killer? How would anyone know Abby would go to the guest room?
Ok, I see, FactFinder: in your opinion, "Abby may have been trying to leave the house for a period that would be greater than just going to the store to get the dinner. So she needed a reason to go out.", And the note didn't exist.

Well, in this case, 1) when, from where, and how did the killer --- in our hypothesis it was not Lizzie --- enter the house and killed Abby in the guest room?

2) Abby, after lying to Lizzie in order to go out for a longer time "than just going to the store to get the dinner", as you conjectured above, why did she go into the guest room and unfortunately met the death there?
Sorry, Franz. I've tried to come up with a hypothesis as to how someone else might have gotten into the house to kill Abby and Andrew that morning. But I just can't come up with one that is solid enough in my opinion. Which is one of the reasons I lean towards Lizzie's guilt.

Right. All is OK.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:33 pm

If Lizzie was innocent, the note came from the killer(s).

I am firmly convinced of this.

(P.S.: And this note must have played a crucial role in the whole murder plan.)

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:04 am

FactFinder wrote:
Franz wrote:
FactFinder wrote:If Lizzie was innocent how would I explain the note? I'd say Abby told Lizzie she got a note to get out of the house for some unknown purpose without being asked any further questions. I wouldn't see it as a part of some criminal plot. But since I don't believe that Lizzie is innocent then I'd say everything Curryong said in his post sums up my opinion on the matter.
Thank you FactFinder.

You said: "I'd say Abby told Lizzie she got a note...". If Lizzie was innocent, in your opinion, did the note physically exist? or just Abby told Lizzie so (in other words, the note could exist, and could not exist as well)? If by any chance you think the note did physically exist, you didn't answer from where it could come from, who wrote it, who sent it, why it was never found afterwards. Even one is absolutely convinced Lizzie being guilty, but beneath the contrary hypothesis, all these questions are worth to be considered (at least in my opinion).

You said: "Abby told Lizzie she got a note to get of the house for some unknown purpose..." But Lizzie testified that Abby told her that she was to go to pay a visit to a ill friend. By saying so do you mean that even if Lizzie was innocent, she partly lied in her testimony, by saying that Abby told her to pay a visit to a friend, and infact Abby didn't mention at all the purpose (in your opinion)?
Franz Abby lying about a note to Lizzie, in my opinion, would not have played into the real killer sending the note. If Abby lied to Lizzie about getting a note I think the note was a fake. There never was a note. I think Abby may have been trying to leave the house for a period that would be greater than just going to the store to get the dinner. So she needed a reason to go out. Nobody saw the note. She didn't even bother to mention the friend she was going to visit because there really was no sick friend. Why would Abby do this? I think it might have had something to do with another property transfer or the making of a will. If Lizzie learned about either it could have put her plan for murder into immediate action to stop it. And Abby may have wanted to avoid any sort of confrontation about it until after the fact. Considering the unrest the half house incident caused in the household. I don't believe Morse was involved in the killings. What purpose would sending such a note serve to any killer? How would anyone know Abby would go to the guest room?

Now this is interesting-- Abby making up a note to have a plausible excuse to leave the house -- to conduct business without Lizzie knowing. It could even explain Andrew coming home earlier than usual-- wondering why she didn't meet him somewhere for the aforementioned business transaction-- but it doesn't explain why he didn't go right back out to see if they had just missed one another at the location they were to meet. It also doesn't explain why she didn't tell Bridget. It would seem she would-- 'Bridget, I have to go out, once the windows are done please do whatever'. Surely she would have given instructions for the noon meal?

Looking past all that-- she may have gone up front to see to the guest room and intended to go back down and up back to get ready to leave. But it is all so unlikely and so many variables to have to fall into place.

I don't believe there was a note, or that Abby lied about one. I think Abby went up front to see to the guest room and was killed there, Brutally and horribly. And I think Lizzie did it.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:37 am

Aamartin wrote:… I don't believe there was a note, or that Abby lied about one. I think Abby went up front to see to the guest room and was killed there, Brutally and horribly. And I think Lizzie did it.

I agree! It is my understanding that when Abby did receive a note regarding someone who was sick, she relayed the message to Bridget, not Lizzie. There never was a note; I think Lizzie made up the note story so that Andrew would not go looking for Abby. I’m sure Lizzie knew she would have been disinherited if her father had found Abby, because Andrew would have known it was Lizzie who killed his beloved wife.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:03 pm

twinsrwe wrote:
Aamartin wrote:… I don't believe there was a note, or that Abby lied about one. I think Abby went up front to see to the guest room and was killed there, Brutally and horribly. And I think Lizzie did it.
I agree! It is my understanding that when Abby did receive a note regarding someone who was sick, she relayed the message to Bridget, not Lizzie. There never was a note; I think Lizzie made up the note story so that Andrew would not go looking for Abby. I’m sure Lizzie knew she would have been disinherited if her father had found Abby, because Andrew would have known it was Lizzie who killed his beloved wife.

Going back to the stolen objects from Mrs. Borden's possessions, once the VIP passes were found to have been given to people by Lizzie, Mr. Borden dropped the whole criminal investigation. He had a knowledge of Lizzie's "indiscretions" and knew she had stolen them. I also think that if Andrew discovered Abby's body, with Emma out of town and only Bridget and Lizzie home, he would have had to have been suspicious of her.
As a side note, this is one cold woman. Look closely at the wording in her will:

28. I have not given my sister, Emma L. Borden, anything as she had her share of her father's
estate and is supposed to have enough to make her comfortable.
I know it seems trivial, but can you imagine talking about your dead father by saying "HER father" Wouldn't you have said "our father" This shows a coldness towards Emma (not surprising, they were not on speaking terms) but also a disconnect from Andrew.

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:37 pm

Aamartin wrote: Now this is interesting-- Abby making up a note to have a plausible excuse to leave the house -- to conduct business without Lizzie knowing. It could even explain Andrew coming home earlier than usual-- wondering why she didn't meet him somewhere for the aforementioned business transaction-- but it doesn't explain why he didn't go right back out to see if they had just missed one another at the location they were to meet. It also doesn't explain why she didn't tell Bridget. It would seem she would-- 'Bridget, I have to go out, once the windows are done please do whatever'. Surely she would have given instructions for the noon meal?

And then there's the fact that no testimony or other info ever came out regarding any pending property transaction, Will signing, or any other transaction that Abby might want to make Lizzie-proof.

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:41 pm

PossumPie wrote: 28. I have not given my sister, Emma L. Borden, anything as she had her share of her father's
estate and is supposed to have enough to make her comfortable.

PossumPie, that's downright creepy. Gee. I wonder what could have come between them to inspire such wording in a Will?

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:50 pm

Back to Franz's tale for just a second. I agree with him that his crackpot theory interesting hypothesis allows only for two conspirators. The messenger is apparently the same person he imagines also passing along Morse's request for some personal article left behind in the Guest Chamber. The second (and only other) conspirator is the one who darts into the house while Abby is outside dealing with the messenger, heads directly for the Guest Chamber, then kills Abby and somehow manages to get the note out of her pocket. There. My job as apologist for Franz is done. Drinks all around.

Question for believers in the innocence of Lizzie who also believe Franz's story: How did Lizzie find out about the note if Abby went right upstairs to the Guest Chamber with it? And if, somehow, this exchange did take place, why didn't Abby also mention that Morse had left something behind and she was going to fetch it to give to this total stinger on the sidewalk to take to him? That actually seems a dishier thing to talk about than the note, and it would certainly be something Lizzie would have mentioned to the authorities along with the tale of the note. It would have strengthened her alibi and at the same time make Abby look like a fool, if we wish to believe she could be that catty.

FactFinder · Post by **FactFinder** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:32 pm

Mara wrote:
Aamartin wrote: Now this is interesting-- Abby making up a note to have a plausible excuse to leave the house -- to conduct business without Lizzie knowing. It could even explain Andrew coming home earlier than usual-- wondering why she didn't meet him somewhere for the aforementioned business transaction-- but it doesn't explain why he didn't go right back out to see if they had just missed one another at the location they were to meet. It also doesn't explain why she didn't tell Bridget. It would seem she would-- 'Bridget, I have to go out, once the windows are done please do whatever'. Surely she would have given instructions for the noon meal?
And then there's the fact that no testimony or other info ever came out regarding any pending property transaction, Will signing, or any other transaction that Abby might want to lee Lizzie-proof.

I'm not really sure, if Andrew owned a property outright and had the deed, who would have had to know about the intention to transfer property into Abby's name until they walked into the office and stated that they wished to transfer the property. Or anyone else who had to know about the intention to make a will until Andrew or Abby made arrangements to do it. To be clear, I wasn't stating it was already drawn up and ready to be signed, or that anything had been signed. But the intention to do so could have been there. There is some evidence that Abby had been taking stock of Andrew's assets and making a list of what he owned.