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Angel
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Sheet

Post by Angel »

Can someone refresh my memory? When Bridget is sent up the back stairs to get a sheet with which to cover Andrew, what exactly happens? Does she object, does someone go with her, I just can't remember. I remember she says she won't go up the front stairs alone later when she is asked to look for Abby.
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

Bridget and Mrs. Churchill return with two sheets. This is before Abby's body is discovered. Mrs. Churchill says that Bridget asks if two sheets would be enough. Bridget says Mrs. Churchill picked up two. I'm inclined to believe Mrs. Churchill as I think Bridget was complicit in the crime.
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

I have been reading a number of older posts about Bridget this morning and there is quite a bit about the sheet getting expedition and some folks have some questions.

Bridget was afraid to go alone so Mrs. Churchill went with her. Dr. Bowen got the key from the sitting room mantle but first brought a "bunch" of keys which was wrong. Bridget & Churchill went up to Abby's room where the sheets were in a drawer. On the way up Bridget asked about one or two. Bridget seems to have been afraid to enter the room so she told Mrs. C. where to find the sheets and two were brought down.

A couple things were interesting to me here. For one thing the key to the bedroom was at times defined as being the key to Mrs. Borden's room which I take to mean not necessarily the key to the whole bedroom suite. In an old paper it was reported that Bridget had said the key went to the safe. So I wonder if the key went to room(s) where valuables were kept or to the whole set of rooms and if it matters.

Other posts a few years ago concerned Bridget apparently being too afraid to enter the room to get the sheets yet when she and Mrs. C. went upstairs and found Abby, Mrs. C. quickly retreated but Bridget entered the room and viewed the body.

Thinking of this however it seems Bridget's first instinct when Lizzie told her someone had killed Father, was to run into the sitting room, but Lizzie prevented her and sent her for the doctor. Did Bridget have some sort of medical experience where she would have gone to aid a person in distress?
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

The door to the guest room was open. Why? No matter who killed Abby, shutting the door would lessen the chance of the body being found before Andrew's time to get the hatchet. This, plus the question about one sheet or two, makes me wonder if Bridget had already discovered the body and for reasons we don't yet understand was willing to cover for Lizzie.
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

I think it was just a natural and very human instinct to try and see if 'Mr Borden' needed assistance. I think most people, medically trained or not, would have gone to see whether Andrew was still breathing, whether he was just bloodied or whether he really was dead. Possum stated in another thread that when someone a person knows dies suddenly the first reaction of loved ones, friends etc is disbelief "No, he (she) isn't! Can't be". Followed by "Can't you do something!" (To medical/ambulance personnel.)

The key to Andrew Borden's (and Abby's) room was the one Andrew kept on the sitting room shelf. He replaced it that day back on its shelf. The key to the safe would, I imagine, be among the list of things in Andrew's pockets (which the undertaker's assistant emptied when he stripped the bodies that Thursday). I can't imagine a man as careful as Andrew (especially after the robbery the year before) allowing his safe key to be laying around.

Bridget never went to the second floor so it's doubtful she would have known which key the safe unlocked. Dr Bowen may have got the key out of Andrew's pocket for the door to 'Abby's room', where she kept household napery etc.

There were lots of keys to the household rooms (it's a fascinating subject) and comes up in older threads many times but I think the only key they couldn't find was to the (blocked) door between Lizzie's room and the parents. The police had to break it down, eventually. I'm off to take another look at the thread 'The Contents of Andrew's Pockets!'
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

But Bridget never went up the front stairs (to the front half of the house) until the bodies were discovered by her and Mrs Churchill. The two women (Bridget and Mrs C.) went up the back stairs to get the sheets from Abby's (store) room so they wouldn't have passed the guest room on that expedition. It was Mrs Churchill, according to testimony from herself and Bridget, who was fussing over Dr Bowen's request for sheets and wondered whether one was enough.

The question of the guest room door is an intriguing one, isn't it? Of course, as a Lizzieite, I would say that leaving her victim within sight of the stairs, combined with requests to others to go and find Mrs Borden, means she wanted her prey found (by others) and the show to commence (to use a theatrical term!)
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

And I say the intruder left the guest room door open so as not to create a click when it was closed. Makes the most sense to me. Lizzie testified the door was closed~which doesn't mean much coming from her but makes sense in the long run if Abby was expecting guests. Lizzie said it was closed to keep out the dust and to be ready for the guests on Monday.
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

The "sheet" testimony has me confused. Bridget and Mrs. Churchill don't openly contradict one another but reading between the lines it seems as each is trying to blame the other for the two sheet idea or at least not take the blame.

They agree Bowen asked for one sheet. Not two; not some; one sheet only.

Bridget describes going upstairs with Mrs. Churchill (first she mistakenly says Miss Russell) and retrieving two sheets. Mrs. Churchill is clearer in stating that Bridget asked if two sheets would be enough. This is before Abby's body is found. Right here is where one of the defense attorneys should've been all over Bridget as to how she knew they'd need two sheets when Bowen asked for one and Abby was still missing!

Then, when they get back downstairs, it is Bridget whose insistence causes Lizzie to send them upstairs looking for Abby..."I thought I heard her come in." But the segue to that directive comes from Bridget who offers to go to Mrs. Whitehead's to look for Abby. After all, Bridget already has Abby's sheet ready...all she needs is a reason to get up to that guest room and find her.

As cunning as this makes Bridget sound, it's no more cunning than Lizzie is regarded. This revelation goes a long way to convincing me that Bridget was complicit in the crime. Freudian crap or Freudian slip, I think Bridget knew either factually or subconsciously that there would be another body for the second sheet.

Given that Abby fell face forward on the floor and had her head bashed nineteen times with a hatchet, I don't think clicking the latch on the bedroom door would've drawn that much additional attention. Plus the door could've been swung shut to the point of almost latching.
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

If all the sheet business is confusing, one of these days I plan to round up all the testimony about Lizzie ironing handkerchiefs. THAT could really drive someone crazy. As far as the sheets I wonder if Bridget wasn't thinking about making a shroud for the body. I think that would be a two sheet thing and maybe it was an Irish custom. Maybe she was thinking of putting the body on one sheet then covering it with a second sheet. Could be innocent. Guess the fact that can be gleaned is that Mrs. C. got TWO sheets.

What I find interesting about Bridget wanting to go to Mrs. Whitehead's is that Lizzie's story was "somebody" was sick and the story is vaguely crafted so it negates Mrs. Whitehead sending for Abby. I take it that Abby saw few other people so maybe Bridget assumed if she was out it must be Mrs. W. But Bridget is so definite that Abby must be at her sister's. She never tries to clarify like, "Could Mrs. Borden be at Mrs. Whitehead's?" Or, "What friend of Mrs. Borden's might be ill?" "Do you have any idea where I could find her?" There's plenty that's missing all the way around.
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

According to Bridget's testimony (page 38) at the trial
"Oh" I says "Lizzie if I knew where Mrs Whitehead was I would go and see if Mrs Borden was there and tell her Mr Borden was very sick." She says " Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in. Won't you go upstairs to see?"

I don't consider Lizzie's musings about her lack of knowledge of Mrs Whitehead's address an incitement to Lizzie to ask her to go upstairs. Especially as Bridget responds (according to her testimony) with "I am not going upstairs alone."

In fact it sounds very much to me like someone (Lizzie) very anxious to get the show on the road, and what better way than Bridget finding Abby's body. Only Bridget wouldn't play, at least until Mrs Churchill offered to accompany her.

Mrs Churchill brought two sheets down, in my opinion, because she imagined there was so much blood on Andrew Borden she thought two sheets might do the trick of coverage while one might allow blood to seep through.

Again no-one was found who stated they were going to come to stay at No 92 on Monday or any other day for that matter. Of course, grubby Uncle John might have been angling for a long-term invitation!
Last edited by Curryong on Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

Oh, for sure, I agree with you...except for the little part of me that says maybe Bridget was smarter than she comes across due to lack of formal education. Street smarts and book smarts do not look alike. I do, however, think Bridget should've been zealously cross-examined for bringing down two sheets for one corpse. Even when it comes to nothing, recognizing these kinds of slip-ups can make the difference between solving a case and not. Of all the potential suspects (and Bridget is #2 due to means and opportunity) she's the one who got the bye. This is where I wish I knew what BOBO knows. :smiliecolors:
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

I believe from my readings of the case, (and still so much more to read and absorb) poor Abby had few friends. One of them who would seek help from Abby in any crisis was her half-sister, Sarah Whitehead. Another (to whom she made that intriguing remark "THEY have taken my key" shortly before her death), was Phoebe Bowen. As Bridget had already seen Mrs Bowen that day, and she was perfectly well, that only leaves sister Sarah, (who was at the police picnic.)

I reckon anyone who keeps all the facts and details of the Borden case in their minds would end up like Brain in that cartoon 'Pinky and the Brain!'

PM perhaps, debbie?
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Re: Sheet

Post by MysteryReader »

I will have to do some reading once I get home but why didn't they go up the front stairs to get the sheet(s)? Also, I don't think anything when I read they got 2 sheets. Whenever there has been a semi-emergency in my life, I end up getting more towels, etc. than is needed, just in case there turns out to be a need.
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

Yes, MysteryReader, I am a joke in my family for having enough equipment in my first aid box to help out the street in an emergency!

After a robbery in the house the year before, half of the second floor of No 92 was shut off by keys, locks and doorways blocked by furniture, from the other half. There was no access on the second floor between the two halves, back and front, which had separate stairways.

Welcome back from your vacation, by the way!
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Re: Sheet

Post by BOBO »

debbiediablo wrote:The door to the guest room was open. Why? No matter who killed Abby, shutting the door would lessen the chance of the body being found before Andrew's time to get the hatchet. This, plus the question about one sheet or two, makes me wonder if Bridget had already discovered the body and for reasons we don't yet understand was willing to cover for Lizzie.
I still believe that Lizzie went and opened the guest room door when she sent Bridget for help.
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

Nobody but Lizzie could have opened or shut the guest room door if you except an intruder. Bridget was unused to going up to the second floor, John was absent, Andrew never searched there and Abby was dead! I agree, I think Lizzie wanted Abby discovered, and sooner rather than later please!
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

Lizzie would've had the opportunity to open the door while Bridget was out scurrying about; however, I'm unsure I see the reason for her doing so. By the way, I'm soooooooo happy to see you still here, BOBO! :smile: I've entertained the thought that Lizzie was enjoying her handiwork with the door open. Now 'that' would be a pathological red flag or a hundred... :evil:
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

I don't want to help you Lizzie-did-it folks but the simplest answer to the door would be Lizzie opened it wide when she went downstairs after her father came home. She either opened it to facilitate someone finding Abby's body or she left it open when she ran back upstairs to get the hatchet to attack her father. Had she left it open when she initially went downstairs nobody would have known the difference since nobody could have been expected to go upstairs prematurely.

I still say an intruder left the door open for reasons stated previously.

Hope this helps. :lol:
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

Thank you, irina. :smile: In my view Lizzie may well have left the guest room door open after she did the deed, or at any time in the hour and a half afterwards. I believe she cleaned the hatchet off shortly after killing Abby and deposited it downstairs, probably in a closet in the dining room ready for Andrew, and then retreated upstairs to 'guard' the body. She probably threw the water she had in her room she had used to clean herself, gossamer raincoat and hatchet, off down the sink at the same time. So long as the body was found at a time of Lizzie's choosing she probably didn't care whether the door was open or shut previously.
Last edited by Curryong on Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

If she did it there was no reason to shut the door. Nobody else would have gone up there or cared. The door doesn't matter except for us Lizzie is innocent folks who also consider her testimony that the door was closed because of company, etc...
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

Yes, but who was supposed to come and stay on the Monday? No-one was ever found or came forward.
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

Good question. Did anyone ever follow up on that? Was Bridget asked? Possibly the party was found but it doesn't matter much to the trial so possibly it was all kept quiet. I wonder on some of the things that seem like the prosecution pulled its punches, if they had answers to a few incidental things and that both sides stipulated to facts and those things weren't part of the trial. I would NOT put the missing note and its sender in this category. The facts of the door are Lizzie said it was closed. Bridget and Mrs. Churchill found it open. It doesn't matter who was planning on coming on Monday~~or if Uncle John left bed bugs.

It would serve no purpose to drag someone else into the proceedings just to back up the possibility that Lizzie was telling the truth about the door being closed due to company. It was found OPEN by two witnesses so the important question is if Lizzie saw it closed all morning, how and when did it become open, and why?
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

My circuitous thinking brings me in from almost the opposite direction. I find everything relevant until proven otherwise. Lizzie's track record with the truth needed reinforcement with some honest statements even if not entirely pertinent to the trial itself. Plus anyone with any connection or possible connection to 92 Second Street in early August needed to be ruled out as a suspect. House guests generally know their host family quite well. Maybe the Monday night visitors knew something vital to finding the truth. Or maybe they didn't and were lost in history. As much as I lean toward Lizzie being the perpetrator, much of this investigation reminds me of JonBent - the police give cursory look at a few suspects and then settle on Lizzie even while knowing there was scant evidence for conviction.
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

Again though, these mysterious Monday visitors are only mentioned by Lizzie. Bridget wasn't told about them nor Uncle John or it would have come up in the witness statements. After all, peripheral things like what the family had for their meals on Tuesday did, but not this. Sorry, but I just get the feeling that when Lizzie was questioned on the Thursday she was just making things up as she went along.
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

This is where my thoughts come back to Lizzie committed a premeditated murder; it was well-planned and executed. But something ran amok that caused her fabrications to be far-fetched. I think it's her inability to burn down the house to hide the crimes. Suddenly she was in a new ballgame where she had to explain lots of things...things that should've been nothing more than a pile of smoldering ashes.
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

Out in the berry patch I got to wondering about Uncle John coming back for lunch. I'm pretty sure only Andrew knew about it. Maybe Abby. I don't think Bridget did and am sure Lizzie didn't. When Lizzie told her father that Abby was out...note...meat for dinner..., I assume Andrew might have said, "That's odd since Uncle John is expected for lunch."

Maybe Abby's body upstairs wasn't a big deal because nobody would check the area EXCEPT what if Uncle John ran upstairs to retrieve something he forgot? Or what if he decided to stay another night? That could have been an ultimate "Oh sh*t" moment.

It might have worked out to act normal and saunter downtown for a sale after dinner. If Abby was found hours later, maybe even a day later, it might not be a huge problem. Uncle John finding her in the wrong time frame could have been very bad.

Not to help the Lizzie did it folks...but it's a thought about dynamics if she did. :wink:
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

Yes, when I wrote my little scenario on another thread some time ago, I imagined time was of the essence once Lizzie realised Uncle John was coming home for lunch. She had expected a couple of hours after Bridget departed on her afternoon off in which to despatch her father. John was inclined to be a chatterbox with Andrew and could have sat conversing for hours, let alone if he had trotted upstairs to the guest bedroom to comb his hair or beard when he arrived home. I do think John was a major spanner in the works time-wise and in establishing any kind of previously planned part-alibi, such as Lizzie being seen shopping, I do think that Lizzie wanted Abby to be found though, hence her requests.

Thank you for your cooperation in Lizzie-dun-it endeavours! (Smile)
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

I don't think Andrew was an original target because I do think Lizzie cared for him. IF she did it I think he was an afterthought. With the lack of crime detecting available, hours passed would muddy time of death for Abby. It would still point toward Lizzie but would be less definite.
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Re: Sheet

Post by dalcanton »

I’m throwing a wrench in here, but maybe the reason Bridget thought of two sheets was not because she knew there were two bodies, but because of the condition of Andrew’s body. His corpse was so bloody (still dripping blood, in fact) that maybe she thought one sheet wouldn’t be enough to cover the horror. Two sheets provide a thicker covering, would better hide the gore underneath & blood would not as easily seep through two sheets as it would one sheet.
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

That's always a possibility. Bridget had not seen the body as I recall, but for sure she could have imagined given the horror expressed by everyone else. Then I wonder if the sheets were large enough to double over. The reason I'm so obsessed with this is that often cases are solved be exactly that kind of slip up. At the least, I think the police and prosecution should've pursued this with the same fervor they pursued Lizzie.
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

I keep thinking there's some little crumb somewhere also. Not sure it's the sheet issue though. For the 2 sheet thing to mean anything it would almost have to be translated as, "Did they find the other one yet?" I think it just has to do with death customs Bridget grew up with in Ireland. Maybe moving bodies on sheets or using sheets as shrouds or bed sheets as winding sheets.
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Re: Sheet

Post by Aamartin »

If it were me, I might just grab a bunch of sheets without thinking about how many I had. However, Bridget asking if 2 was enough isn't necessarily suspicious to me.
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

Would you all think the same if instead of Bridget being the Seeker of the Two Sheets it had been Uncle John or Lizzie who had gone upstairs to get one sheet specifically requested by Bowen and had then wondered if two would be enough. I see Bridget getting a bye on her testimony and contradictory or inexplicable statements. Imagine the brouhaha if Lizzie had been sent upstairs to get a sheet for Andrew and has asked if one would be enough. Or more so, John Morse. That might have been enough to indict him. I recognize this could've been total innocence on Bridget's part but I am not convinced. The more I look at this crime, the more I think Lizzie had help although not necessarily in the actual killing but more tacitly. Asking for two sheets makes me think that somehow Bridget had already seen Abby's body. And that her urgency to go to Mrs. Whitehead's reflected her desire to have Abby found.
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

LOL, I can just see John Morse threshing around in the laundry cupboard! Actually, apparently Abby kept the spare household linen in a desk. Odd! I think the main reason John Morse lived with friends and relatives later in life was to get his wants and needs attended to by the wives, a made bed, a meal, a shirt washed occasionally, etc.

It's true what debbie says, though, isn't it, that for the most part whichever way we come from we have our ideas of the main people in the case, Andrew--skinflint, Bridget--chirpy, Dr Bowen--a bit of a smoothie with the ladies, John Morse--eccentric, and so on?

Having said that however, probably the reason Bridget wanted to contact Mrs Whitehead was because Sarah was very close to Abby and she believed that Mrs Whitehead had sent the note, taking Abby away. (See, I'm giving Bridget a pass again!)
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

Do we absolutely know that Bridget was clueless as to where Sarah Whitehead lived? She'd been at the Borden's for two years; I'd think at some point in time she would've been sent there with a note, a pie, some fresh eggs, a recently used hatchet.
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

LOL. about the hatchet. Yes, it is strange. Presumably, Abby would waddle down there herself with a pie or two, leaving Bridget to clean the windows or scrub the doorstep or whatever. You would think just in case of emergencies Abby would have written down Sarah's address, but apparently not. What a strange household the Bordens was!

You think Andrew would have allowed one or two of his precious eggs to have been taken to the Whiteheads? Eggs represented money! Bridget probably had to account for them--one for the cake yesterday, one for the pudding today, two for the breakfast last Tuesday and so on!
Last edited by Curryong on Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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irina
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Re: Sheet

Post by irina »

Think of the difficulty of laundering sheets. Chances are Bridget also ironed them. They would have been used sparingly. Today we'd grab a pile of them but not then.

I mentioned before I thought it was weird that Bridget didn't know where Mrs. W. lived. Others didn't think it odd. I do think it's odd because I don't think it was that far away. If it was across town I would understand but I think it was just a few blocks.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
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Curryong
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Re: Sheet

Post by Curryong »

Yes indeed! Except in heavy rain poor old Bridget, assisted by Abby presumably, would be out with the wash-tub in the back yard or mangling away in the cellar every Monday. As there was no running hot water there would have to be a massive boiling up first. It makes me wonder if larger items like sheets and blankets were sent to the convenient nearby Chinese laundry instead. I suppose some items like woollen jackets might have gone to the dry-cleaners.

I agree, Bridget probably did iron the dried things the next day, again not the greatest job with the flat-irons of the time.
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debbiediablo
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Re: Sheet

Post by debbiediablo »

irina wrote:Think of the difficulty of laundering sheets. Chances are Bridget also ironed them. They would have been used sparingly. Today we'd grab a pile of them but not then.

I mentioned before I thought it was weird that Bridget didn't know where Mrs. W. lived. Others didn't think it odd. I do think it's odd because I don't think it was that far away. If it was across town I would understand but I think it was just a few blocks.
Lol...I ironed sheets (as did my mother) when we were first married 39 1/2 years ago. I was working, going to grad school, then in a few years a baby showed up. Still working, more grad school, more kids, my mother was terminally ill, and somewhere along the way those sheets moved into the wash and use category! Laundry was a process in 1892, no throwing in a load and heading for soccer practice.
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