Strange at Gov Robinson's Grave

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:04 pm

George Robinson, Lizzie's lead counsel and ex-governor of Massachusetts, is buried in Chicopee, MA. Strangely but true, across the little roadway from his big grave monument, there is a tombstone that looked to be quite old. It was upright, white and plain, except for one name carved: Lizzie.

Source: Myself. I was there and I saw it. I did take photos and if I find it some time when I am home, will post it.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:19 pm

It's the hatchet???

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:23 pm

OMG, Sherry, you're kidding!!!

Now, that is weird!!! I can't wait for you to post the photos you took!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:51 pm

It is strange! Maybe it's a pet that he named after his most famous and profitable client and he got special permission to have it buried near to him! Otherwise, I agree with debbie!

More seriously, it couldn't be a family member of his, could it? Baby daughter, little sister who had died years before? Lizzie was not an unusual name in America in the 19th century.

PS. He had two children with his first wife, a son born in 1861, a daughter in 1869. Quite a gap and enough time for another baby to be born and die in babyhood in between.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:10 pm

Not kidding, twinsrwe. It's the dangest thing. I'll be glad when I can post the photo/s to be enjoyed. And it just said "Lizzie", too. No last name, no dates, nothing else - unless the rest had worn off. But I don't think so because "Lizzie" was very clear on it.

No, Curryong. No relation to Gov. Robinson. His family plot is across the roadway from this "Lizzie" tombstone - not any part of the Robinson plot.

This "Lizzie" could have been part of a family whose plot was across the roadway from his. I've tramped thru a lot of cemeteries and usually if someone just puts a first name on a tombstone, it's a marker that's flush with the ground. It must have been part of another family that just happened to be located there, tho.

Governor Robinson died in 1896, and Lizzie Borden was about 35 years old. I guess she could have done it as a joke, but she was Andrew's daughter - would she have spent the money on something so frivolous? I think it was just a very surprising coincidence. Still, it was neat to see.

Yes, there sure were a lot of ladies named "Lizzie" back then. One time I was searching online at a library and it listed its holdings. On the list it said it has a box of letters from "Lizzie and Emma". I contacted the library, and it was an entirely different Lizzie and Emma.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:18 pm

Well, that's my theory shot! 'Smile'. I agree with you it's probably a gravestone attached at one time to another family plot. This is probably an infant member, that the family just wanted to memorialise with her name, though it's weird there are no dates on it.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:56 pm

I find it interesting that George D. Robinson died of a stroke, 2 years and 8 months after he secured an acquittal for Lizzie. He was only 62 years old.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:54 pm

Find-a-Grave has no Lizzie buried there but several dozen Elizabeths, none of whom appear to be related to Robinson or Wright. Not all graves are listed there, only the ones that have been submitted. We have two old cemeteries on our farms, one I can see from our bedroom window. Even these small rural graveyards have a list of plots and whose buried there back into the 1860s. I'd think the Fairview would know who occupies that spot or what family does.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:57 pm

No, he didn't have much time to enjoy that enormous fee. Of course, 62 in those days isn't like 62 now, and he was a man in a sedentary profession, probably a little overweight. His second wife survived him by many years I believe.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:30 am

I was surprised to learn that Robinson died that soon after the Borden trial.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:54 am

I think you really have something there, Augusta. There are some writers who would write a whole book over that one finding. Seriously, can the style of stone be dated? You mention white color so I think Marble. Was marble used in certain years and not others for instance. There used to be quite a science in dating grave stones.

I about went nuts looking in the old papers for reported crumbs about Lizzie A. Borden after the acquittal. In New Orleans there was a woman named Lizzie Borden who was active in a lodge and politics. She was in the paper all the time. Little notices about things she was involved in. I soon quit looking for anything about FR Lizzie in New Orleans papers.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:35 pm

Around here old white gravestones are limestone and easily eroded...then again they're 150 years old. Limestone was readily available to the settlers. I "rubbed" all the unreadable stones in the two cemeteries attached to our farms which isn't all that many. Marble was probably more available in the northeast plus the area had been settled longer. Irina is right; books have been written on less!! Is there technology that can "x-ray" (for lack of a better word) the ground around the stone for hatchet shaped metal?

http://iowagravestones.org/cemetery_lis ... Elk+Valley
http://iowagravestones.org/cemetery_lis ... me=Hamlett

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:00 pm

Marble is of course readily available in the northeast. Not so much out west although I think some is found in Denver. Marble or even limestone stones out here had to be sent in as I understand it. Still there might have been certain quarries used at certain times or certain styles in certain decades. I LOVE the idea the hatchet might be buried there. Too funny!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:24 pm

Even if the hatchet is not there (and here's where Possum and I agree on Occam's razor) I still love the irony of Robinson spending all eternity facing Lizzie, whoever this one may be, across the road. Not Elizabeth or Liza or Liz or Lizbeth...but just plain Lizzie.

To borrow from Brother Where Art Thou? the Governor appears to be a grease spot on the Karma train line.

If that's the hatchet, then it'd be interesting to know what he really believed in - other than the Borden money. It's interesting that the Jennings bathtub papers have been released to the public but not what the Robinson law office holds. In theory, all papers pertaining to Lizzie's defense are governed under the same code of ethics.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:18 am

He believed in Lizzie Borden didn't he, so I don't suppose it would bother him much. Now, if Hosea Knowlton was buried where the Governor was, then....An everlasting reminder of a humiliating defeat in front of the eyes of the American Press and public!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:28 am

Curryong wrote:He believed in Lizzie Borden didn't he, so I don't suppose it would bother him much. Now, if Hosea Knowlton was buried where the Governor was, then....An everlasting reminder of a humiliating defeat in front of the eyes of the American Press and public!

If that's the hatchet, then it'd be interesting to know what he really believed in - other than the Borden money. It's interesting that the Jennings bathtub papers have been released to the public but not what the Robinson law office holds. In theory, all papers pertaining to Lizzie's defense are governed under the same code of ethics.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:05 am

augusta wrote:I was surprised to learn that Robinson died that soon after the Borden trial.

Yes, I was also surprised to learn this. I have often wondered since Lizzie was ostracized the rest of her life by the citizens of Fall River, if Robinson, was blamed by the citizens of Fall River for allowing a murderer to go free.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:26 am

Curryong wrote:He believed in Lizzie Borden didn't he, so I don't suppose it would bother him much. Now, if Hosea Knowlton was buried where the Governor was, then....An everlasting reminder of a humiliating defeat in front of the eyes of the American Press and public!

As far as I know, it is not known if Robinson believed in Lizzie’s innocence or not. Upon leaving office as the Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in 1887, Robinson resumed the practice of law in Springfield, Massachusetts at what is now Robinson Donovan, P.C. It was in this period that he achieved, in 1892, the distinction of serving as Lizzie Borden’s defense counsel; for a retainer of $25,000 he was able to secure her acquittal. $25,000 of 1892 dollars would be worth: 657,894.74 in 2014; that’s certainly not pocket change! So, if Robinson believed in Lizzie’s innocence, then, I’m sure, spending eternity beside a tombstone with the name of ‘Lizzie’ carved on it, he would be smiling in his coffin.

However, if he believed Lizzie was guilty, and just did the job he was paid to do, then I’m sure he is NOT smiling.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:27 am

debbiediablo wrote:… It's interesting that the Jennings bathtub papers have been released to the public but not what the Robinson law office holds. In theory, all papers pertaining to Lizzie's defense are governed under the same code of ethics.

I agree, Debbie. It does make one wonder why the Robinson law office has not released the papers regarding Lizzie’s trial.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:50 pm

Yes, the Robinson law office makes soothing noises every now and again about there being 'no smoking gun' among the papers that they have. Perhaps there isn't but it would be nice if they allowed an archivist from the Fall River Historical Society some access just to see what they do hold.

Apparently the firm's owners have quoted client confidentiality when anyone has tried to see the documents! I know NancyDrew was terribly concerned that one day the firm would have a 'clear-out' and all those files would go.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:01 pm

I didn't expect a smoking gun but how about a bloody hatchet?

I can sort of see their point in that it might drive some business away...people who are committing heinous crimes and don't want their great-great-great-grandchildren to be stigmatized should the evidence be released in 150 years. Funny that the FOIA releases far more sensitive information after a much shorter length of time.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:44 pm

Yes, in Australia and Britain authorities release documents about Cabinet decisions and discussions after fifty years, some of them quite amusing to read actually.

I've just been reading on my Kindle 'Supper with the Crippens', about an American doctor in London who bumped his wife (an American music hall artiste) off with hyoscine and buried her in the cellar of his home. He was the first murderer to be tracked by ship's wireless, in 1910. The author wrote his book in the 1990's using new material that had just been released.

Anyway, I don't think Lizzie confessed to Robinson, Jennings or anyone else! That 'smoking gun' analogy was actually used by the firm spokesman! I wonder whether he thought about the irony of it afterwards! Nor do I think Lizzie accused anyone else in her consultations. She didn't need to. I think Robinson was quite confident of an acquittal. Whether he really believed her or not (I tend to believe he did) is another kettle of fish!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:10 am

Confessing to one's attorney is always the best idea...that's what happened to OJ and Howard Weitzman who quit due to a "heavy workload." Every lawyer I know said the same thing when it happened: Weitzman had to quit because Simpson was going to lie under oath and an attorney cannot suborn perjury. I agree with Curryong. Lizzie didn't confess. And none of her attorneys wanted her to, either. Plus they were cut from the same cloth as the all male jury...men who simply couldn't imagine their wife or daughter committing a hatchet murder. I do wonder what this evidence examined 150 years later would reveal that Victorian males in 1893 weren't ready to see.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:03 pm

Is it possible that Lizzie confessed to her attorney about what she was actually doing in the barn and by doing so, she convinced her attorney about her innocence? And her attorney judged necessary to continue to cover somehow what she did in the barn during the trial?

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:26 pm

What do you think she might have been doing in the barn? That she wouldn't have wanted brought in open court?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:37 pm

debbiediablo wrote:What do you think she might have been doing in the barn? That she wouldn't have wanted brought in open court?

Anything she couldn't confess openly for a woman as her in that time...

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:05 pm

Maybe the tobacco in Andrew's jacket was something he found Lizzie using...and he pocketed it. How funny if she went to the barn for a very masculine cigar...or whatever. I doubt that she's go to the gallows in order to keep that a secret.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:31 pm

debbiediablo wrote:Maybe the tobacco in Andrew's jacket was something he found Lizzie using...and he pocketed it. How funny if she went to the barn for a very masculine cigar...or whatever. I doubt that she's go to the gallows in order to keep that a secret.

But how could Lizzie doubt that she would run the risk to go to the gallows in that very first moment immediately after the discovery of her father's body and being asked about her whereabouts? She certainly couldn't (if innocent), IMO.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:39 pm

Good point...she wouldn't unless she was guilty. But somewhere between August 4 and the trial date, Lizzie might come to believe that telling the truth would be the safer choice.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:47 pm

debbiediablo wrote:Good point...she wouldn't unless she was guilty. But somewhere between August 4 and the trial date, Lizzie might come to believe that telling the truth would be the safer choice.

Some people prefer the death instead of confessing anything that might damage --- according to themselves --- their reputation. Lizzie might be one of them, why not?

Not to consider this possibility might mean for me to underestimate Lizzie.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:59 pm

That is true, Franz, some people do although perhaps not so much anymore. We live in a day and age where reputation is not so meaningful. If this were true for Lizzie, then it might also explain part of why she remained in Fall River all of her life when living elsewhere would've been commensurately easier.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:20 pm

debbiediablo wrote:That is true, Franz, some people do although perhaps not so much anymore. We live in a day and age where reputation is not so meaningful. If this were true for Lizzie, then it might also explain part of why she remained in Fall River all of her life when living elsewhere would've been commensurately easier.

Totally agree.

irina · Post by **irina** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:07 pm

I doubt Lizzie was covering up some action of hers that she considered shameful. If she had done anything of an extremely personal nature that would be considered shameful I think she could have lied better than she did. If her lies~even I will say she failed to tell the truth for whatever reason~were to cover something other than her guilt I would assume she lied to cover for another person. (Or maybe she was in shock and wanted to imagine herself somewhere else.)

Debbie, your new avi has to have been designed by someone with a twisted mind who understands cats. That's really something! My Borden point here would be that cats in Lizzie's day couldn't have had all that fun because toilet paper wasn't invented and Sears catalogues and/or corn cobs won't unwind like that. Cats had it tough in Lizzie's day.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:14 pm

OFF TOPIC:

That's thanks to Twins who sent me a link that allowed the original to be downsized but maintain the animation.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:55 pm

Well done with the animation, debbie! Cats probably had a lot more rats and mice to chase in Lizzie's day. Bothering with pieces of paper strung on a string would have been beneath them!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:55 pm

debbiediablo wrote:OFF TOPIC:

That's thanks to Twins who sent me a link that allowed the original to be downsized but maintain the animation.

OFF TOPIC: You are so welcome, Debbie. I like your new avatar!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:06 pm

twinsrwe wrote:
debbiediablo wrote:OFF TOPIC:

That's thanks to Twins who sent me a link that allowed the original to be downsized but maintain the animation.
OFF TOPIC: You are so welcome, Debbie. I like your new avatar!

I like both of ours. This could become too much fun!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:09 pm

irina wrote:I doubt Lizzie was covering up some action of hers that she considered shameful. If she had done anything of an extremely personal nature that would be considered shameful I think she could have lied better than she did...

For me this point demonstrates exactly Lizzie's innocence: yes, Lizzie didn't lie bettere to cover up better something of shameful, but this just because she didn't know that she would have this need, she couldn't foresee her father's death and therefore she didn't prepare anything in order to cover up whatever she actually did in the barn. She lied only sur-le-champ.

BOBO · Post by **BOBO** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:21 pm

Franz wrote:
irina wrote:I doubt Lizzie was covering up some action of hers that she considered shameful. If she had done anything of an extremely personal nature that would be considered shameful I think she could have lied better than she did...
For me this point demonstrates exactly Lizzie's innocence: yes, Lizzie didn't lie bettere to cover up better something of shameful, but this just because she didn't know that she would have this need, she couldn't foresee her father's death and therefore she didn't prepare anything in order to cover up whatever she actually did in the barn. She lied only sur-le-champ.

TOTALLY 100% OFF TOPIC..... Yeah, what he said. J/K dang it!!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:30 pm

BOBO wrote:
Franz wrote:
irina wrote:I doubt Lizzie was covering up some action of hers that she considered shameful. If she had done anything of an extremely personal nature that would be considered shameful I think she could have lied better than she did...
For me this point demonstrates exactly Lizzie's innocence: yes, Lizzie didn't lie bettere to cover up better something of shameful, but this just because she didn't know that she would have this need, she couldn't foresee her father's death and therefore she didn't prepare anything in order to cover up whatever she actually did in the barn. She lied only sur-le-champ.
TOTALLY 100% OFF TOPIC..... Yeah, what he said. J/K dang it!!

Ahaha, you are right, BOBO.

BTW (off topic), what does J/K mean?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:51 pm

debbiediablo wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
debbiediablo wrote:OFF TOPIC:

That's thanks to Twins who sent me a link that allowed the original to be downsized but maintain the animation.
OFF TOPIC: You are so welcome, Debbie. I like your new avatar!
I like both of ours. This could become too much fun!

I like both of them too! I can see it coming: We are both going to be changing our avatars several times to see what else we can come up with.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:49 am

Wouldn't it be off the chain if Lizzie was buried next too or across from Robinson? And I have always wondered if Rboinson actually believed in Lizzies innocence.