Okay...here's my theory :-)

[RGJ]

Hi all!

As per my introductory post, I'm a newbie but a longtime reader here and I have done some outside investigations over the years.

I think, from having looked at a lot of "pupular crime" (highly recommend the book of that name by Bill James) that sometimes the mud of time obscures the simple and straightforward. In reality, one statement or fact in a file is often overcome in an investigation or impeached in a trial. And so many "facts" here have evidence at the time that also points the other way.

To me, after a first reading years ago, my theory remains the same:

John V. Morse, under either dire financial pressure, or seeing it coming in the catastrophic Iowa drought on 1898-1895, comes back to his hometown, forced to live as a boarder in two different homes. He has a business argument with Andrew -- there are plenty of possible reasons, the eighty horses, the purchase of the hobby farm, a loan, a change in a will -- doesn't matter for the purposes of this post. He lands in at the Bordens in a panic, had a conversation with Andrew that doesn't go his way. Does it destroy him financially? Does it merely tick him off? Doesn't matter for the purposes of this post, we don't know muc h about John V. Morse except that he took money very seriously.

Morse has some business dealings with people in the horse trade, the cattle trade, the slaughterhouse trade, some of them no doubt less than prosperous, and maybe a few a little crazy from years in the slaughterhouse whacking cattle with pole axes, the most popular means of slaughter.

Morse arranges to be inside the always tightly locked house, slides down to the cellar, the location of the toilet, so not so strange, in the middle of the night, and either slides the lock open or actually gives entry to a man he has contracted with to kill Andrew Borden. The murderer's motives and circumstances are not important -- desperate men have existed through history, and the fact that Morse dealt with people used to this method of killing is to me extremely damning. Much ois made of thge blood that must have covered the murderer....a men who slaughter for a living would know best how to deal with that, aprons, angles, etc. Morse likely knew plenty. On the other hand, a gun, a knife, poisoning (I know, maybe they tried that) are all noisy and open to failure and/or a line of evidence being left.

Morse exits in the morning casts out his way too detailed alibi, and returns to the house. The murderer either kills Abby first an hour before, or waits until Andrew returns home. Perhaps he is told to catch Andrew upstairs, and stumbles across Abby, but Andrew rests downstairs instead. Doesn't matter, and we will likely never know.

He exits back down to the cellar and exits tossing the hatchet onto the Crowe barn roof. Morse saunters back, and goes to the backyard. Why? He wants to make sure his assassin got out of the cellar, didn't leave a bloody hatchet lying around and a trail of blood. Maybe the assassin was supposed to exit with the hatchet, and paniced and threw it on the roof. Whatever. also, the door is bolted now from within. This is not a dealbreaked by any means. Locks were not made (especially then) to be concerned with someone outside trying to lock them. A piece of string or wire in a door carefully closed can then be pulled to lock from without. Maybe it takes a few times. Or maybe Bridget, terrified that she would be blamed for leaving it open, discovered it in the immediate aftermath and locked it. Her monolugue in her testimony reads (paraphrase) "I locked this and this door and this door and checked them and..." Bridget had fethched window cleaning gear fromthe cellar....perhaps she brought some things outside and left the door open for their later return. The lock on that door had previously been an issue during the internal burglary investigation, with Lizzie herself guiding police to the fact that it had been jimmied and jammed up. Or, perhaps he slid out another door. At any rate, I believe that Morse conspiring with an outside murdering criminal could find a way in and out of a Victorian house, lock issues notwithstanding.

One massive mistake I believe most fans make is the hour and a half death between Abby and Andrew. First off, I have to laugh when someone gives great weight to the horrible nature of someone who could lurk in the house for an hour waiting for Andrew to return. This is a very horrible man wielding the axe/hatchet. That is baked in the cake.

Secondly, the forensic science of the time is greatly overweighted in present day discussions. No forensic scientist today -- look at the OJ transcripts -- will attempt to give a time of death outside a range of hours -- they leave it to detectives and circumstances to narrow it down further.There are many reasons an obese sedentary older woman could feel cold to the touch where a slender, fit man freshly back from a long walk would feel warmer longer. With head injuries, no matter how horrendous, the heart may not stop promptly...perhaps Abby's did by Andrew's didn't. And the stomach problems they each had suffered, or medications they took...could have impacted one more than the other. Or maybe Abby kept eating a bit later. Even if you just look at the unadorned accepted facts, no one can say they didn't die 15 minutes apart rather than 90.

At any rate...in any complex murder, there are a few things that may seem contrary or facts or testimony that seem certain that speak against the most straightforward explanation. Look at the JFK case for how experts and eyewitnesses and earwitnesses can seem to veto every theor except a bolt from a parallel universe.

Summary: A man involved in the slaughterhouse industry, with various possible financial motives, arrives in a house. the next morning two people are found dead, one in the room in which he slept. And a Victorian spinster Sunday School teacher is the murderer? C'mmoooon. If Morse had a stutter in his alibi, and the cops hadn't all immediately pushed all their career chips onto the Lizzie bet, no one would have dreamed another chief suspect.

So...the actual name of the murderer? I would look to the gypsies/transients/slaughterhouse employees...unfortunately, men who didn't leave much of a written trace on this earth back in the 1890s. Maybe a census, marriage, death, birth certificate, not much more. It would be nice if an employee of Isaac Davis' slaughterhouse received a $3,000 check from John Morse a week after the murder and diappeared to another state where he was convicted of an axe murder...doubt we will find that. I've looked a bit before realizing it would be like finding a needle in a needlestack.

So, that's my story :-)

[RGJ]

uugghhhh...sorry for all the typos, no edit function here, eh? :-)

[RGJ]

Also...someone has mentioned theories by franz and jeffrey (or jeffery?) regarding John Morse and a conspiracy. Having some difficulty searching that...can anyone link me?

thx!

[irina]

It was custom in those days for single family members to visit around with other relatives. I don't think Morse was in financial difficulty and nobody has come up with proof that Lizzie and Emma paid him off.

Something I have been waiting to come up here that hasn't, is the slaughterhouse business. There was a great deal of pressure and some violence I believe with developing the industry. The Swift family, etc. Some of that touches on the Fall River area. I have wondered if Andrew hadn't ticked off someone who was trying to organize this industry. I haven't looked into it because I don't like to know about the meat industry. I eat meat but not much and really cannot stand the concept of the big meat packing houses.

A good reason to believe Abby was killed earlier is because nobody saw her after about 9:30. It would have been very helpful to Lizzie if she could have testified to seeing Abby after that point, but she didn't. Instead she had the story that is questioned, about a note. She assumed Abby had gone out though she hadn't seen Abby go out. Surely if Abby was alive later than that and if Lizzie was innocent especially, she would have had more to add to her testimony. The note story is probably very fortunate. Had Lizzie described having a cup of coffee with Abby at say, 10:15 am, THAT would have been labelled a complete lie under the circumstances. The note story squeaked by.

[Curryong]

Hi, again, RGJ. I've brought up Franz's theory for you, it's just below in the threads. I work today (opposite hours in Australia) but I will try tonight to get the Jeffery thread out.

I have read your theory before, it is an interesting one but proof is missing. There is no hard evidence for it. I expect when you have read through the previous threads, which go back to 2003, you will have seen some similar theories being argued out. All I can say is that there is no evidence that John Morse, who was a very shrewd and cautious individual, was ever in such financial mess that he contemplated assisting murder.

As regards the time of deaths. Doctors in those days, even qualified ones, obviously weren't aware of much forensic testing. However, they would have seen, in the course of their professional lives, hundreds more dead people than doctors do now. People generally died at home. They were aware of summer conditions, heat, cold on bodies. They would have seen industrial accidents leading to death, in a mill town. Don't underestimate their expertise!

PossumPie was a qualified nurse of many years experience. He posted on here many times his opinion on the bloodflow, times of death and stomach contents of Andrew and Abby. It was invaluable to have his experience and knowledge. His opinion was that the doctors were correct in their estimates. And, as irina has pointed out in her post, Abby, who had been bustling about, was not seen after 9.30 a.m. at the latest.

[RGJ]

Hi guys! Thanks for the reply, this is very interesting to me, having been researching in a vacuum for years :-) And first off, let me say I know anything I bring up has probably been talked to death years ago. But I do think I have new info that make work in eventually.

I will comment first on the temperature of the bodies.

As regards the time of deaths. Doctors in those days, even qualified ones, obviously weren't aware of much forensic testing. However, they would have seen, in the course of their professional lives, hundreds more dead people than doctors do now. People generally died at home. They were aware of summer conditions, heat, cold on bodies. They would have seen industrial accidents leading to death, in a mill town. Don't underestimate their expertise!

I agree with that, but how often would they be forced to make a tight time estimate that was subsequently subject to challenge in court? Writing estimated times of death on a certificate doesn't mean you always or even often accurate outside other data. In fact, I would you think that someone with the above general doc experience could go an entire career without their opinion of time of death meaning squat.

Algo Mortis

Firstly, I have never been very clear as to why an hour or ninety minutes between deaths was important or proved. Could a cold blooded murderer have killed Abby and then waited for Andrew's return, perhaps miscalculating his schedule? I do not see why not, and I'm not sure why anyone would impute nervous flight on a guy who was in a wacky hatchet murdering kinda mood that day :-)

That said, as I have said before, I would challenge anyone to find a study or testimony from a modern forensic pathologist who would testify to a time of death within two hours, and anyone who would do even that would be based upon a rectal themometer or perhaps therman imaging. Here are some factors affecting algor mortis:

Stability or fluctuation of the ambient temperature.

In comparing this case, you are comparing an upstairs and downstairs on a hot day in a Victorian home with no temperature control (.e.: air conditioning or heating). We can guess how the circulation was, whether there were doors or windows open...perhaps Abby had aired out the room prior to changing the bedclothes...I don't know. I have read that Lizzie helped her father lie down and offered to open some windows...I don't know whether windows were indeed opened, but that speaks to the fact that the room was uncomfortably hot. Mention of that here, but no reference to testimony, and I haven't looked: http://weeklyview.net/2014/09/25/lizzie ... ok-an-axe/

The thermal conductivity of the surface on which a body lies.

This one we do know something about. Andrew was lying on an afghan sort of thing on leather couch with his upper body head on a pillow resting on his cloth coat. Anyone that has ever napped or slept on a leather couch knows that after a few minutes it gets warm and even induces sweat. It has no circulation below it as cloth would. I would wonder if it isn't the surface MOST liable to help hold a body temperature high after death.

Abby's body was found on her knees (I know there is some debate here as to whether the body was moved). He only contact with any surface able to help hold her body temperature were her knees.

Outside of perhaps a bed, I would think you could almost be unable to find two surfaces more different in abilities to keep up a body's temperature in a standard Victorian home..

Diseases or drugs which increase body temperature raising the starting temperature of the corpse at the time of death.

Andrew was lying down because he did not feel well. A fever or abnormally high temperature, in combining that with a long walk on a hot day, would almost guarantee an above normal temperature. In addition, there are allegations of various drug use or medications for the stomach issues among pretty much the whole family. Many of these will raise a body's temperature significantly, never mind sickness or the surface the body lies upon.

That, in addition to my assumption that body temperature and cardiac circulation might lead to a lower body temperature in a 5'3" woman appraching 200 ls, and a slender man accustomed to daily walks, would lead me to believe that the bodies temperatures could be much closer than one might assume from two idential bodies in identical health without any outside drugs.

PossumPie was a qualified nurse of many years experience. He posted on here many times his opinion on the bloodflow, times of death and stomach contents of Andrew and Abby. It was invaluable to have his experience and knowledge. His opinion was that the doctors were correct in their estimates.

That is great, I will go back andplook for it. However, I would not agree that the doctors could not have been correct in their estimates, because the doctors didn't agree :-)

And Dolan, in particular, I believe knew that his hand temperature opinion was ridiculous....and it was his hand. He seemed to want to flee from his inquest estimate when confronted at the trial. the first answer is classic, I can picture the flop sweat::

Q. Do you desire to change that opinion now?
A. I don't know that I desire to change it, except that-since it is there of course I said that, but I hadn't the impression that I said it, just as I told you I hadn't the impression that I said it was from the time I saw her or from the contrasting of the deaths of the two bodies.
----------
"Q. What would you say now?
A. I don't know. Of course the external temperature would have something to do with it, but I am not prepared to say how long it would take for her body that particular day. As I say, all normal bodies differ very much in length of time."
-------------
There are a number of recent (last twenty or so years) that show that a body cooling is extremely individual.

And, as irina has pointed out in her post, Abby, who had been bustling about, was not seen after 9.30 a.m. at the latest.

Between covering each other's butts, possible involvement, and general confusion over the usual way of life in ten minutes increments (what time did you read my post!!?!??!) I believe no one's testimony in the house. I'm not saying they are all inaccurate, I'm saying I wouldn't discount a theory based on Bridget, Emma or Lizzie's sometimes contrasting testimony and statements.

Again, I have never seen, and I have looked, a credentialed forensic pathologist say "about an hour". The preminent Dr. in the field, for instance, Dr. Michael Baden, was brought in to the John Belushi case. Aside from the testimony of the girlfriend witch who shot him up, the last people to see him alive left his hotel at 3:30 am (Robin Williams and Robert DeNiro, betcha didn't know that) and his body was found at 12:30 pm. When his temperature was taken at 4:37 pm, it was 95 degrees. Baden said 8:30 to 11:30 based not on body temperature, of course, but on specific testing or the state of rigor and livor mortis, and he still testified that he always gives a three hour windown, he qualifies it that he may be off.

So Baden, testifying at a case with a body temperature of 95 degrees at 4:37 pm, estimated that death could have been more than eight hours before. And that was based on rectal temperatures.

Plus -- and please hear me on this -- don't you know people who are simply always cold to the touch ??!! It is a sign of poor cardio circulation. I'm thinking that Abby's body type is well within the danger point of that.

So, I give no credence to Dolan's estimate or the subject of body temperature at all.

[irina]

So if we discount or disregard Lizzie and Bridget's testimony there really isn't any way to say when Abby died.

[Miranda]

One point: if a slaughterer had killed them, it wouldn't have taken so many "whacks". My Uncle, (who raised me from a pup) just told me that it only would have taken one whack to kill a pig, and maybe 2 (if it was a bad day) to kill a full grown cow. He has been on many farms, and for 11 years worked in a slaughter house (irrelevant since they don't "whack" em nowadays, they use a special gun called a "knocking gun") I have seen (and helped) him kill pigs many times, so I know its true.

one of the reasons I have always believed Lizzie dun it is because of the ferocity and anger it showed. I cant imagine a stranger continuing to whack em after they had to know they were dead already. Andrew's eyeball was ... I don't even want to type it, we all know. Who but Lizzie could have had that kind of anger?

[twinsrwe]

One point: if a slaughterer had killed them, it wouldn't have taken so many "whacks". ...

I agree, Miranda.

RGJ, a couple of questions for you.

1. What did Morse gain by having Abby and Andrew killed?

2. What did the slaughterer gain by killing these two people?

[irina]

No way a slaughterman killed either of the Bordens because the job was too inefficient. But I wonder about labour organising for the newly growing meat industry.I really don't want to read up on that subject but I have read in passing that there were some strong arm tactics as the meat industry moved east. I think why I thought of this with the Bordens was because David Anthony was connected to the Swifts or something. I am not sure what I think of the David Anthony business. I think I discount it completely. But a mess, violent murders could stem from hired troublemakers. I put it that way to avoid saying hired killers. If anyone was hired to kill the Bordens he was sloppy and probably on something like drugs or alcohol or both IMO. Probably the best argument against anything like this is I don't see a hired thug attacking in the family home in the morning.

[RGJ]

one of the reasons I have always believed Lizzie dun it is because of the ferocity and anger it showed. I cant imagine a stranger continuing to whack em after they had to know they were dead already. Andrew's eyeball was ... I don't even want to type it, we all know. Who but Lizzie could have had that kind of anger?

This is a very good point, it is called "overkill" by detectives. It can point to a family member or a psychopath. I'm assuming a hired psychopath.

[RGJ]

One point: if a slaughterer had killed them, it wouldn't have taken so many "whacks". ...

I agree, Miranda.

RGJ, a couple of questions for you.

1. What did Morse gain by having Abby and Andrew killed?

Erasing a debt, cutting off drafting of a will in which he would not benefit, a belief he could buy the "hobby farm" he need for his horses from the heirs....for a couple possibilities.

2. What did the slaughterer gain by killing these two people?

I believe he was hired by Morse, and may also have business entanglements, perhaps the horses mentioned by Phillips.

[RGJ]

No way a slaughterman killed either of the Bordens because the job was too inefficient. .

Who else but a professional slaughterer would have reason to make it not look like a professional slaughter? Murder 101 is not leaving your telltale signature. If a physician had killed them he would not have made clean professional incisions to the throat and liver.

[Curryong]

Where is the evidence of any business entanglements of Andrew's or John Morse? Where is the evidence that, after sitting talking amiably to Andrew and Abby on the Wednesday afternoon and the Wednesday evening plus early that Thursday morning, John arranged for a hired killer to come to the house?

For this theory to work we have to believe that John had business troubles on no evidence whatsoever. We have to disregard Bridget's testimony and also (as far as it can be believed) Lizzie's, in favour of a hired psychopathic killer who entered the house unseen by neighbours and/or bystanders.

We have to disregard the medical evidence that Abby died hours before Andrew even though Abby's food in her gut was undigested and Andrew's had been. Also the evidence that the blood under Abby was dried, blackened, and Andrew's blood was dripping when the first witnesses arrived. Doctors in those days could tell whether a body was newly dead or had been killed more than an hour earlier, even if they weren't absolutely accurate. The windows were closed in both cases, by the way, and shuttered against the sun. Blinds were also down. It was not roastingly hot on that Thursday (though it was stifling in the barn.)

debbie has posted a great deal on the likelihood of a killer known to the victim depersonalising the facial features of bodies in domestic murders, and the damage to Andrew's face and to the back of Abby's head points directly to this. Rage, passion! Over-kill, all the way!

Who would be paying this hired killer? John, (in financial doo doo, according to this theory,) or someone else?

[Aamartin]

JVM did not benefit financially at all that we can tell....

[Franz]

JVM did not benefit financially at all that we can tell....

I have to say that you are right, Anthony.

But, seeing the horrible Death of some one that you hate horribly. this might be a horrible pleasure for some people.

[twinsrwe]

One point: if a slaughterer had killed them, it wouldn't have taken so many "whacks". ...

I agree, Miranda.

RGJ, a couple of questions for you.

1. What did Morse gain by having Abby and Andrew killed?

Erasing a debt, cutting off drafting of a will in which he would not benefit, a belief he could buy the "hobby farm" he need for his horses from the heirs....for a couple possibilities.

2. What did the slaughterer gain by killing these two people?

I believe he was hired by Morse, and may also have business entanglements, perhaps the horses mentioned by Phillips.

RGJ, please do not answer questions within a members quote, and use the review option before submitting your answer.

Now then, show me the EVIDENCE to back up your theory. So far, your theory is nothing but speculations.

[irina]

So this theory is like other theories. Until evidence is found to prove the theory it continues to fall in the realm of it could have happened that way. It could have happened that Lizzie was innocent and it could have happened that Lizzie was guilty. Even between those basics none of us can find the absolutely, definitive bit that says it was absolutely one way or the other.

[RGJ]

Where is the evidence that, after sitting talking amiably to Andrew and Abby on the Wednesday afternoon and the Wednesday evening plus early that Thursday morning, John arranged for a hired killer to come to the house?

How would you have behaved if you were Morse?

For this theory to work we have to believe that John had business troubles on no evidence whatsoever.

John Morse would be the only Midwest livestock trader alive who hadn't been devastated in the drought. The drought of the 1880s had a devasating effect on the entire Midwest, and in particularly cattlemen and traders, who could not provide grazing land or feed, and had tens of thousands of cattle and horses starve in the fields -- or be slaughtered for meat for which there was no market.

http://www.apstudynotes.org/us-history/ ... -frontier/

""The terrible heat and drought of the late 1880s proved too much even for the bonanza farms. Many farmers of the plains were forced to give up, and the entire plains region became economically depressed in the 1890s.""

http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/geog/e ... expand.pdf

How were the dry plains turned into farming land? Why did the cattlemen give way to the farmers? One reason
why the cattlemen were forced out was the summer drought of 1886, when the grasslands withered and cattle
starved. The winter was the worst in living memory and thousands more cattle froze to death. Many ranch
owners were ruined.

Etc. The Panic of 1993 was the worst depression in America until the Great Depression in the three decades later.

We have to disregard the medical evidence that Abby died hours before Andrew even though Abby's food in her gut was undigested and Andrew's had been. Also the evidence that the blood under Abby was dried, blackened, and Andrew's blood was dripping when the first witnesses arrived.

Actually, I am agnostic about time of Abby's death. I don't think it much matters whether they were an hour apart or twenty minutes apart or five minutes apart.

Doctors in those days could tell whether a body was newly dead or had been killed more than an hour earlier, even if they weren't absolutely accurate.

We disagree for the reasons I previously stated. I would like to see an example of how proof was provided that doctors' estimates were ever proven right, even in one case.

debbie has posted a great deal on the likelihood of a killer known to the victim depersonalising the facial features of bodies in domestic murders, and the damage to Andrew's face and to the back of Abby's head points directly to this. Rage, passion! Over-kill, all the way!

Sunday schoolteacher with no pre-or-post history of violence? Or psycopath?

It also has occurred to me that Morse may have directed the killer to make it look like a madman on the loose by making a scene of such carnage that family members would not be suspected. And, no, I didn't overhear that conversation. :-)

Who would be paying this hired killer? John, (in financial doo doo, according to this theory,) or someone else?

Maybe he was a desperate man and it took very little. Maybe John promised him later. Maybe he forgave a debt. Maybe the psycho was a young man with a hero worship of Morse. Maybe he gave him some of those 80 horses. It's a psycho by definition of his acts. He probably didn't have in investment portfolio. IMO, WAYYY too much credit is given to the brilliance of his planning. Some of it was probably dumb luck, as happens in many true crime murder cases.

[RGJ]

So this theory is like other theories. Until evidence is found to prove the theory it continues to fall in the realm of it could have happened that way. It could have happened that Lizzie was innocent and it could have happened that Lizzie was guilty. Even between those basics none of us can find the absolutely, definitive bit that says it was absolutely one way or the other.

Damn, I meant to say theory in the title :-)

[RGJ]

Where is the evidence of any business entanglements of Andrew's or John Morse? Where is the evidence that, after sitting talking amiably to Andrew and Abby on the Wednesday afternoon and the Wednesday evening plus early that Thursday morning, John arranged for a hired killer to come to the house?

Also, did they speak amiably at breakfast? I am discounting Morse's testimony, of course. The other two were in no shape to testify :-) Anyone else give an opinion on the amiably of the breakfast chatter?

Bridget's testimony:

Q. There was not, so far as you knew, any trouble that morning?
A. No sir, I did not see any trouble with the family.
Q. You heard them talking over things about Christmas time, didn't you?
A. I don't know; I did not stay much in the dining room when the folks were eating at all.

[RGJ]

So, different subject. The Note. From when I first read upon on this case a decade or so ago, the note seemed obvious to me because of the follwing:

-- Abby had few friends who she would be called upon in times like this
-- She never did leave the house
-- Dr. Bowen's appearance at the Emery's house, implying a sick member of the family
-- while I don't know the relationship between the Emery's and Abby, they were dotted line relatives, more likely for Abby to come when called, perhaps?

So, if the note was designed to get Abby out of the house before 11, perhaps Morse sent it, asking Abby to come...well, it could be for a number of reasons. Bring some of the medicine you guys have stockpiled with your stomach issues. Come help here after I have to leave to mind the sick relative.

Perhaps Morse used the Emery's phone to call a Borden neighbor who had a phone, and relay the message. Then the boy came to the house, either masturbating or the victim of incest, I haven't read the whole forum (jk, sorry :-) )

Abby was not seen leaving the house , of course. Perhaps, as with Bridget, she was overcome with nausea. Perhaps the note merely said "come ASAP" and she was going to wait for her husband's return and make the beds. Perhaps my murderer crept upstairs earlier, mistaking the passage of time...I wouldn't think he had a collection of watches. He may have been directed to wait for Andrew coming home, and when the boy came to the door, he thought it was Andrew..

Then the murderer sees the note in Abby's bedroom and skedaddles with it.

[irina]

Among those of us who believe in the note, there are a variety of ideas about what it said or meant or if Lizzie listened and reported correctly what Abby had said. Your idea is a novel one. Masterton in his book suggested that the note was from Mrs. Whitehead saying that Little Abbie wasn't going to go to Aunt Abby's that day for babysitting because Aunt Abby had been sick.

It is very possible the note merely announced an illness such as you suggest, and did not require Abby to take any action. Victoria Lincoln in her book proposed that Andrew sent the note to get Abby out of the house and to the bank to sign papers without tipping Lizzie off to what was happening. So it's possible Uncle John could have done something to get her out of the house prior to Andrew being killed.

There is an interesting line of questioning about the clocks in the house. I believe it was Bridget being questioned. I have raised an issue about the parlour~that no one went in there that day, Bridget avoided washing the inside of those windows, the doors were closed all day, and yet it does not seem to have been considered as a place where an intruder could have hidden. In the questioning Bridget was asked if there was a clock in the parlour which I found interesting.

Another odd area I am interested in is the Gordon Bordon Letter wherein a person no one ever found describes how the murders were committed. There are errors and one is in the time cited. Knowlton kept this letter in his files so I think he gave it some attention if not much credence. So I wondered if the question about a clock in the parlour had anything to do with the idea an intruder could have hidden there. Or maybe it doesn't mean anything. You can find this testimony by going to the trial and using "parlour" for the search term.

[RGJ]

Among those of us who believe in the note, there are a variety of ideas about what it said or meant or if Lizzie listened and reported correctly what Abby had said. Your idea is a novel one. Masterton in his book suggested that the note was from Mrs. Whitehead saying that Little Abbie wasn't going to go to Aunt Abby's that day for babysitting because Aunt uote]Abby had been sick.

Yes, I enjoyed the book, particularly the theories about the forensic timing. Whether accurate or not, it raised some issues.

The note theory above, as I recall also states that Abby might have gone to the Whitehead's with a pie (or maybe saw it there?) and sat and ate.

Maybe jumped the shark with that one...

[Curryong]

The Emerys (the wife) were John Morse's relatives. Mrs Emery was his niece. Nothing to do with Abby. Dr Bowen didn't give Abby medicine when she ran across to see him on the Wednesday morning. He testified to the fact that he had sent her back home with castor oil to clear her insides out, and castor oil only. Andrew didn't much believe in doctors. He confined himself to home remedies, like the Garfield tea he may have had in his pocket, so there was no medicine in the Borden house to be sent.

No note was ever found and Abby was found wearing Andrew's old boots, an old print house dress, and possibly an apron. She had not been out. She had not been seen since, as Lizzie testified, she had gone up to put new pillow cases on the pillows at the end of the bed. She never left the guest room alive, and that points to a death quite early in the morning, 9:30ish.

You don't sit down and eat breakfast with a man and his wife that you have been quarrelling with, nor continue the quarrel over breakfast. If it had got to that level John Morse would have surely not bothered with breakfast, or indeed staying the night. He would have gone off home back to Dartmouth. Bridget never saw or heard any signs that Morse was quarrelling with Andrew or Abby.

[twinsrwe]

... You don't sit down and eat breakfast with a man and his wife that you have been quarrelling with, nor continue the quarrel over breakfast. If it had got to that level John Morse would have surely not bothered with breakfast, or indeed staying the night. He would have gone off home back to Dartmouth. Bridget never saw or heard any signs that Morse was quarrelling with Andrew or Abby.

I agree, Curryong. Another thought I have is: Why would John Morse kill Abby if his quarrel was with Andrew? Not only that, if his quarrel was with Andrew, then why hack away at Abby with almost twice the number of blows that Andrew received?

[RGJ]

You don't sit down and eat breakfast with a man and his wife that you have been quarrelling with, nor continue the quarrel over breakfast.

Heck, we do it at Thanksgiving every year!

[Curryong]

Interesting extended family you must have, RGJ! 'smile'. (We don't have Thanksgiving here.)

[taosjohn]

No note was ever found and Abby was found wearing Andrew's old boots, an old print house dress, and possibly an apron. She had not been out. She had not been seen since, as Lizzie testified, she had gone up to put new pillow cases on the pillows at the end of the bed. She never left the guest room alive, and that points to a death quite early in the morning, 9:30ish.

Of course to make his point one has only to stipulate that Abby's heart continued beating for a while after the fatal blows were struck at 9:30ish.

Or maybe I'm confusing his theory with another...

[RGJ]

The Emerys (the wife) were John Morse's relatives. Mrs Emery was his niece. Nothing to do with Abby.

Who were the parents of Emery's wife?

[RGJ]

The Emerys (the wife) were John Morse's relatives. Mrs Emery was his niece. Nothing to do with Abby.

Well...how is that proven out? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Emery woman would be Lizzie and Emma's first cousin, correct? They didn't have to be pals, but a call from a relative might spur help. Funny, I spent yesterday taking a cousin I rarely speak with into Sloan Kettering in NY for a cancer treatment. so...ha! Checkmate :-) and, by the way, the gd Ferguson clowns closed the Lincoln tunnel for a half hour, backing up the city, and we are in the car for seven hours. So I hatcheted my cousin to death.

Dr Bowen didn't give Abby medicine when she ran across to see him on the Wednesday morning. He testified to the fact that he had sent her back home with castor oil to clear her insides out, and castor oil only. Andrew didn't much believe in doctors. He confined himself to home remedies, like the Garfield tea he may have had in his pocket, so there was no medicine in the Borden house to be sent.

Not to pick on you, you've been awesome, but the last statement is indicative of many debates here. The correct response (to me) would end be "....that we know of," and it has to be realized that there would be many reasons to deny the act of overly prescribing (Bowen) or existence of those drugs (Lizzie). If Lizzie looks at the jury and they think "Well, she looks sane, but there was some morphine hoarded around the house from past treatments, or from that friend of hers from church named (fill in the blank) well, damn, maybe she freaked out on drugs."

Well...Bridget was sick too, right? I think this argument falls under the category of "whatever"...maybe there were prescription drugs and Bowen re-thought whether he wanted to be busted for cranking her up before the murder. Maybe these drugs were whatever constituded over the counter back then. Maybe Lizzie had been or was addicted and had stashes. Maybe Morse brought some. Maybe there was a black market for it, if there wasn't it would probably be history-making. I read somewhere a theory that Lizzie had been an addicted for sometime? Maybe it was tampons. Maybe it was some other item of illness comfort fer chicks.Maybe the whole thing was BS to get her out of the house. Maybe they were looking for castor oil.

No note was ever found and Abby was found wearing Andrew's old boots, an old print house dress, and possibly an apron. She had not been out. She had not been seen since, as Lizzie testified, she had gone up to put new pillow cases on the pillows at the end of the bed. She never left the guest room alive, and that points to a death quite early in the morning, 9:30ish.

I'm debating here for sport, but the Note never really interested me. Maybe Abby just lied about what the note actually was for to Lizzie, they weren't pals.

You don't sit down and eat breakfast with a man and his wife that you have been quarrelling with, nor continue the quarrel over breakfast. If it had got to that level John Morse would have surely not bothered with breakfast, or indeed staying the night. He would have gone off home back to Dartmouth. Bridget never saw or heard any signs that Morse was quarrelling with Andrew or Abby.

ppfffttt...you're such a chick, gotta storm out, huh? :-) No, I don't believe this at all. Andrew and John had a life-long relationship. They probably knew each others' business debate dance steps. A quarrel, even what perhaps exaggerated as a "violent argument" didn't have to end with someone stomping out. These were growedass men of commerce.

Some guys raise their voices all the time in business...maybe John had good reason to downshift and end it somewhat amicably, hoping either that the business or will or whatever could still be salvaged. Or maybe he had the murder set up, and storming out would be the most awesomely stupid thing he could do.

I think it is interesting to parse what "violent argument" meant. And was that a sole source piece of evidence? Can't recall, no coffee yet. "Violent" maybe not mean physical violence, particularly when placed in front and characterizing "argument," which is not physical, by definition. Maybe somebody slammed a door.

I asked before, who was Mrs. Emery's father? (Actually it would be mother to be on the Morse side). It had to be a sibling of John.

I'll look...I know he had a bunch of siblings...I remember an Ann, a Margaret, I think a Sarah...and a weird name, like Adelrade, something like that.

[Curryong]

Sorry about my phrasing, which does tend to the over-emphatic side! We are all here to debate, some feel so strongly about a certain piece of evidence, testimony that they are presenting that they post verification. debbie invariably does this when she quotes from professional medical publications, for example. In the very early threads Kat would often remind people to verify, especially if they were quoting something.

We generally don't do it now because we have so few active posters and several don't have a massive collection of Lizzie literature. Therefore, now, we tend to present what we know of the case from our reading of it from various sources and just post that. Inevitably it's opinion-based and because we can't see each other it can come across as 'know it all' or argumentative or tentative or whatever, when it isn't meant that way at all.

I believe strongly in Lizzie's guilt, and inevitably my posts will try to back that up with whatever I can muster! Therefore, of course I don't KNOW that Lizzie wasn't an opium or cocaine addict, that medicine wasn't stock-piled at No. 92, just that nothing I have read, about Lizzie, Andrew or Abby would justify that view. It's the same with John Morse and Andrew's demeanor towards each other that Thursday. I have changed my mind about John Morse's indirect influence on what happened on that Thursday morning since I started posting here. However, I don't believe that Andrew and he were arguing because I have never read any evidence that it was so.

Evidence, for me, comes from primary documents, testimony at the trial, research backed by solid proof. For me, that doesn't include a theory developed by a man who was a legal assistant at the time of the trial, in the years afterwards, when he was never able to trace any of the men he was talking about in the pony deal, or any documentation about the ponies, or anything really, other than a heart-felt belief that Lizzie was innocent.

He certainly picked up legal gossip that was floating around Jennings' office but do remember that Jennings was in charge of grabbing at anything that would help in Lizzie's defence. If there was anything concrete found about John Morse's business affairs, about him going broke, hanging about with dubious characters or engaged in any business deals with his brother-in-law, the defence would have been on it like a shot. The fact that they didn't shows that they couldn't find anything.

There was nothing sinister in Morse's friendship with the Davis family. He had worked for them for two years as a very young man before he went West. Isaac was blind by the 1890's and John used to shave him. The Davis's had a small butchery and slaughterhouse at Dartmouth.

Nor is there anything particularly strange in John boarding with others. After all, he was doing exactly the same thing as an old man, when he was worth over 20,000 dollars, (a great deal of money in the early 20th century) as he had done earlier. He may have hated domestic chores, didn't want a housekeeper and liked living with friends. Emma did exactly the same after 1905 and she was wealthy and had nothing to do with the murders. John could be talkative and apparently would spend hours in a friend's store talking about life after death when he was older. He may have wanted company.

[Curryong]

John Morse was the son of Anthony Morse and Rhonda Morrison. He was Sarah Anthony Morse Borden's younger brother. Siblings were William Bradford Morse, Hannah Morrison Morse, Frederick, Mary, Orin, Arabella, Selecta, Fernando, Sarah .M. and Alvarado. The vast majority of these siblings died in infancy or childhood.

Mary Louisa Morrison Morse married a second cousin, Joseph, and they lived in Fall River. They had two children. However, there was a niece and a nephew of John V Morse who were visiting Fall River from Minnesota. The niece was Anna or Annie Morse, the nephew seems to have been Joseph, the son of Mary Louisa, but he was absent. Anna confirmed that her uncle John Vinnicum Morse had visited that morning. It appears to be the Emerys that Anna and her cousin Joseph were staying with, and Mrs Emery (who was married to a Daniel Emery) was John Morse's cousin. Mrs Emery is often referred to in press reports as John's niece when she wasn't! It gets very confusing!

By the time of John Morse's death in 1912 he had two siblings alive, his full brother William who lived in Minnesota, and Arabella Morse Davidson, his half sister. I think she was the daughter of Anthony and his second wife, Hannah.

Arabella lived with her husband John Davidson on a farm that abutted the Hastings, Iowa, farm John owned. There'd been a quarrel in the 1880's (until then John had worked his land but boarded with them.) At the time of the murders Arabella seems to have been bitter and spoke badly of her half-brother. She described him as a 'man who, when crossed, would never forgive, a trait she herself shared.' Other people spoke kindly of him, however, though he was regarded as 'self-denying, peculiar, scrupulously honest, selfish, hard-fisted in business dealings' etc. (Rebello Page 71) No wonder he and Andrew got on so well! Arabella was a residuary legatee in her half-brother's will in 1912.

[RGJ]

Wow, that is great, I have been sorting through Census records and such on this stuff. What is your primary source for the Morse family out West, Currylong?

Also, what about the Harringtons? They keep popping up...one was a cop who seemed to dislike Lizzie (Phillip?) and the other was the brother of Andrew's first wife, Hiram Harrington, who Lizzie testified was the only man she could think of that bore him ill will.

Were those two related?

[RGJ]

For me, that doesn't include a theory developed by a man who was a legal assistant at the time of the trial, in the years afterwards, when he was never able to trace any of the men he was talking about in the pony deal, or any documentation about the ponies, or anything really, other than a heart-felt belief that Lizzie was innocent.

?? Do you doubt the Morse brought horses out? I thought that had multiple sources...I remember some newspaper accounts...he testified he was an active horsetrader.

I thought Phillips piece spoke to evidence more than any theory.

He certainly picked up legal gossip that was floating around Jennings' office but do remember that Jennings was in charge of grabbing at anything that would help in Lizzie's defence. If there was anything concrete found about John Morse's business affairs, about him going broke, hanging about with dubious characters or engaged in any business deals with his brother-in-law, the defence would have been on it like a shot. The fact that they didn't shows that they couldn't find anything.

Totally disagree.What Phillips said there is exactly correct in a murder trial, especially if you believe the prosecution can't prove its case. If you put her in a group of competing candidates, the jury may convict her for being the BEST suspect, rather than a case being made beyond a reasonable doubt. In desperate straits, maybe not. But any trial attorney will tell you to stay focused on reasonable doubt so long as things are going well. If you drag in Morse, for interest, who knows what he might say in his defense attacking Lizzie? It comes back to bite you.

Plus, you don't know if Lizzie just bluntly told her lawyer not to go there.

There was nothing sinister in Morse's friendship with the Davis family. He had worked for them for two years as a very young man before he went West. Isaac was blind by the 1890's and John used to shave him. The Davis's had a small butchery and slaughterhouse at Dartmouth.

Yes, they were in the slaughterhouse business, where you might know people who were both open to deperate measures, and are used to crushing mamals heads. Also knew how to minimxze the blood they wind up in. Nor is there anything particularly strange in John boarding with others.

I disagree. In Iowa he was a head of household in the 1880 census, owned his farm. You have to go look at the cattle industry in those drought years in the Midwest. It isn't like "maybe" business went bad -- it was a regional catastrophy for everyone in the business. Whole towns empied out...most going West, but people like Morse returning to his hometown.

After all, he was doing exactly the same thing as an old man, when he was worth over 20,000 dollars, (a great deal of money in the early 20th century) as he had done earlier.

No, 23 thousand dollars (his will estate), is worth around $400,000 today, after they sold off his house and land. Twenty three thousand non-liquid is poverty.

Nor is there anything particularly strange in John boarding with others. After all, he was doing exactly the same thing as an old man, when he was worth over 20,000 dollars, (a great deal of money in the early 20th century) as he had done earlier. He may have hated domestic chores, didn't want a housekeeper and liked living with friends.

Then you own a house and have boarders. Remember, not everything was dirt cleap, horse and cattle trading was an expensive game, and that is why Andrew loaning Morse some money to bring horses east makes perfect sense. Remember, the one horse Phillips discussed was 900 dollars...eighty of them is well in excess of John Morse's net worth. That was a huge, expensive bet on his part. His margins were probably not great after paying Andrew back, paying for the grazing he may not have expected (maybe he thought they were going to the "hyobby farm" paying the two wranglers,transport....that $900 prime pony may have been a big blow to him. Since it would have resulted in the two "western horse men" who were responsible for the horse's death....well, any loan or note between Morse and Borden would be a big deal to Morse. I can see a believable plotline there...

[Curryong]

Fall River Globe, on Morse, as transcribed by Harry-

Monday, August 15, 1892, 1+


ECCENTRIC, BUT HONEST.

John V. Morse as Known By His
Far Western Neighbors.

HASTINGS, Ia., Aug 14 -- This place was for about 25 years, and in a sense is yet, the home of John V. Morse.
Miss Lizzie Borden has sent Detective Hanscom out here to investigate relative to Morse's past life.
Morse came here in 1869 from Illinois, where he had been a farmer with the exception of two or three years, during which, while a young man, he learned the butcher's trade. Morse has been a farmer ever since.
In Illinois he was a renter. During this period he saved up something less than $1000, and then came here and bought land; he owns two farms, 220 acres in all, as well improved as any farm in the county.
Morse has never married. He was always regarded by his neighbors as a very eccentric and peculiar man. He never, apparently, formed any close friendships, always maintaining a close reserve and in all his dealings was close almost to the point of penuriousness.
But he was always strictly honest.
The years he spent here were years of the strictest frugality, of self-denial that amounted almost to miserliness.
He would drive to town in an old rattle-trap lumber wagon using a pine board for a seat when he could have just as well afforded a buggy.
He would wear the same suit of clothes everywhere. It is pretty certain that the suit he is now wearing at Fall River is the same he wore when, he left here two years ago.
Only once during his long residence here did he show any inclination to take any comfort in life as he went along. One winter he electrified everybody who knew him by purchasing a nice, new buggy and a new suit of clothes. He suddenly showed a disposition to go into society and all that winter he attended parties and some other social gatherings as country life affords.
It was rumored that he was looking for a wife.
When the winter was over, he sold his buggy, laid aside his store clothes and was still a bachelor.
Those who know him best, however, agree that he was never anything more than eccentric. He was close, hardfisted, almost avaricious, but scrupulously honest. On one occasion in making a settlement with a brother of Hon. L. G. Gerung, who lives here, Morse recalled and paid for items and services which Gerung had entirely forgotten.
It is somewhat singular that in the discussion as to the possibility of Morse's connection with the Borden murder, Morse's brother-in-law, whose farm adjoins that of Morse, and who has known Morse since 1857, manifests almost no feeling. Some years ago Morse lived with the Davidsons, and the result of this was a coolness amounting almost to an estrangement which has continued up to the present.
Mrs. Davidson, who is Morse's half sister, seems to hold an opinion of Morse which is hardly as favorable as that of her husband. She says Morse was a man who when crossed would never forgive, and in fact, she describes this as a characteristic of the family and one in which she herself shares. In speaking of the arrest of Lizzie Borden she became very indignant and exclaimed that it is most preposterous to suppose that Lizzie could have murdered her parents.
Morse was never a horse trader, but he raised a good many horses on the farm, and when he had a surplus he sold them. Two years ago when he went East, he took with him a carload of horses. None of the animals were blooded, and there are people here who wondered at his taking so many ordinary stock.
But, however eccentric he may have been, he prospered and today he is considered quite well off for a farmer. Besides a farm he owns stock in the Botas Valley State Bank of Hastings. He has not been in need of money lately, for a short time ago he willingly gave one of his tenants who pays cash rent, an extension of time. And so, summing it all up, it appears that for about 25 years, John V. Morse has been a very hard working farmer. He has prospered and now seems to be taking things easy.
It is altogether likely that his moroseness, cynicism and other eccentricities were largely the result of his lonely condition in life

[Curryong]

There was a report of a man who had jumped a fence near the Borden property who was supposedly the leader of a gang of gypsy horse traders who were camped near Westport. Erroneous reports appeared in the Press linking John Morse with these horse traders. Morse never brought any ponies into town and the man who was the leader of the horse traders, Bearsely Cooper, who fitted the man's description, was traced by the police and had an alibi. He was selling a horse to a citizen of New Bedford at the time of the murder. Neither he nor the gypsy horse traders had anything to do with John Morse or Andrew Borden. You will note that the report says two years before, when going East, Morse had taken horses, that is, in 1890.

As it says in the above report, Morse was never a horse trader, he was a farmer.

He had as the report above shows, shares in a bank at Hastings. Also (Rebello Page 72) he had 850 dollars of stock in Wampanoag Mill; 20 shares of stock Parker Mills Fall River, worth 2, 625 dollars, First Mortgage Bond, Parker Mill 1,000 dollars;First Mortgage Bond in Fall River 500 dollars; Botna Valley Bank Hastings, 99 dollars and New Bedford Institution for Savings, New Bedford 994 dollars. All at the time of his death.

He bought a farm in 1871 for 1,250 dollars. After Morse's death it was sold for $12, 500. He was very far from being poverty stricken.

Before the trial, not during it, after Lizzie's arrest Jennings sent private detective Hanscom to Iowa, to see if there were any pointers that could be used by Lizzie's defence at her trial. Was Morse broke, was he hanging around with bad characters, anything that might take the emphasis of Lizzie as chief suspect. Hanscom came up empty. Emma and presumably Lizzie knew about this manoevre as they must have given permission for it. So much for protecting their uncle!

I know people who work in abattoirs, (the modern equivalent of slaughterhouses) and have done so for years. One of them owns one. does this make me a dangerous and dissolute person? Charlie and Isaac Davis were well known butchers in the area. They had a small slaughterhouse. Surely if the Davis's and John were such a disreputable crew Emma would not have, as she apparently did, go and visit them at Dartmouth.

Why didn't wealthy Emma own a house and have boarders in, if it was so strange to board with others? It's far more likely that, though Emma and Morse liked company they preferred to relax in others' homes and not have the responsibilities of it all. That would have been especially true of a male in those days.

Finally, even if John Morse had known a thousand angry horse wranglers or violent gypsy horse traders, there is no evidence whatsoever that even one angry man gained admittance to the Borden home that Thursday. The houses on Second St were close together. Bridget wasn't that far away. Sounds of rage, yelling, shouting, was heard by no-one. No-one was seen to enter and then, inexplicably, murder the wife of the man who was the source of the quarrel while she was tidying the guest room.. Nor was there any sign that a rage-filled intruder waited for Andrew and then, equally inexplicably, killed him while he was asleep without even questioning him about the business deal.

[RGJ]

Thanks for posting that. See, I see this a confirmation in many aspects where you see refutation.

Morse was an "eccentric" loner. It sounds like the reporter could find anyone to say anything positive about him aside from his dealings in money...actually, not even that on balance.

Perhaps he was embittered at his last chance shot for a wife.

He DID indeed trade horses...they say he occasionally sold them, as a tradesman. "Trader" doesn't mean swapping like baseball cards. He went with a load in 1890, later he had the two western men bring the eighty. That is confirmation of his predilection to the trade, as he testified at the inquest he sometimes did.

He had as the report above shows, shares in a bank at Hastings.[/quote]

That may have been a disastrous investment in the drought climate.

Also (Rebello Page 72) he had 850 dollars of stock in Wampanoag Mill; 20 shares of stock Parker Mills Fall River, worth 2, 625 dollars, First Mortgage Bond, Parker Mill 1,000 dollars;First Mortgage Bond in Fall River 500 dollars; Botna Valley Bank Hastings, 99 dollars and New Bedford Institution for Savings, New Bedford 994 dollars. All at the time of his death. He bought a far in 1871 for 1,250 dollars. After Morse's death it was sold for $12, 500. He was very far from being poverty stricken.

These are twenty years later and have nothing to do with his motives in 1892. You may as well exonerate Lizzie for later wealth. After the drought and Panic of 92, the worst depression ever in America to that point, it may have been easier to make money in a rebounding Iowa.

Having an investment in an Iowa bank in 1892 is more of a confirmation of motive than confirmation of wealth.

Other points:

-- because you know several apparently sane modern slaughterhouse employees has zero relevance. I would assume they aren't braining cattle with axes all day.
-- he undoubtedly didn't buy a farm for 1250 in 1871 -- they just said he had less than 1000, and would not have left himself broke to setup house. have. No doubt the bank owned his house, like anyone with a mortgage.
-- you again sprinkle "there is zero evidence" throughout. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. This was five generations ago in an atmosphere where almost literally everyone could have a motive to lie, from cops through to all the possible suspects.
-- you say Morse had no dealings with the gypsy horse traders...what you need to be saying is that no evidence exists of it passed down in writing 120 years later. Morse was never really a suspect during the lives of the people who might be in a position to know of dealings. If you asked ten of them in 1920, maybe they would have said "well, of course he did. He had dozens of horses to sell." We don't know, and by its nature it is almost unknowable, as advocates of a different theory would dismiss a press account anyway.

I'm not dismissing the above at all, but his financial status twenty years later had little to do with the pressure of selling 80 horses priced as high as 900 per. That is an entirely separate magnitude than a few hundred dollars of stock in some bank twenty years later.

[RGJ]

Two other items: google "botas valley state bank of hastings" and the only hit that comes up is this forum. Also note that the investment cited by the reporter had dwindled to 99 dollars by 2012, and the bank investments he held were all in Massachusetts. Maybe that is someone who lost money in Iowa banks...

Further, to emphasize, when you look at these numbers, keep in mind that 900 horse that died, according to Phillips (who went on to found a law firm...what would be his motive to lie?" 900 times 80 is 1.2 million dollars. Wait, that can't be right. Okay, its 72,00 dollars. Phillips says the black horse that died was the pick of the litter, so lets say 50,000. The picture has been painted of a semi-retired prosperous farmer -- why would he take that enormous risk? To me, it was likely because of a incontrovertible fact we do know -- horse and cattle were dying by the herd throughout the Midwest, over one trillion that summer. Wait, that can't be right. Anyway, in some areas....all of them. There was no feed.

I can't find Morse's inquest testimony...in it I believe says something about livestock trading but says he doesn't do it much anymore. That's vague....but this is the guy who answered "about 60" when asked his age.

Before the trial, not during it, after Lizzie's arrest Jennings sent private detective Hanscom to Iowa, to see if there were any pointers that could be used by Lizzie's defence at her trial. Was Morse broke, was he hanging around with bad characters, anything that might take the emphasis of Lizzie as chief suspect. Hanscom came up empty. Emma and presumably Lizzie knew about this manoevre as they must have given permission for it. So much for protecting their uncle!

Unless they thought the prosecution might bring him in as a conspirator. As the cops case floundered maybe they were considering that. My guess is that, not overtly, but the defense team may have wanted to point suspicion to a crazed madman on the loose, and away from the family. Being able to whisper to the detective that they sure hoped Morse came out clean, and your check will be here when you get back.. Then they whisper that in a newsman's ear and the madman story bubbles up again.

[Curryong]

Why would the Prosecution bring him in as a conspirator? They had enough to deal with with Lizzie on trial?

Fall River Evening News August 5th 1892. (Repello Page 122)
'A letter from a cashier in an Iowa bank of recent date, shows a handsome balance of Mr Morse's credit...' This isn't 1912 but at the time of the murders.
You seem determined to show that John Morse was in financial trouble and was also trading horses in Fall River resulting in an argument with Andrew and murder. I ask again, where's your proof? Theories are all wonderful but without some solid foundation they're like thistledown. It's all very well saying, well it's been over 120 years and therefore the proof isn't there any more. The thing is, it might not have been there to begin with.

It's not a question of Phillips being a liar but of him believing so much in Lizzie's innocence that he convinced himself through the gossip he had heard as a young man that Morse had lost heavily on a horse deal and therefore must have had something to do with Andrew and Abby's deaths.

Part of your theory is that Morse somehow skipped back to no. 92 and his alibi was a lie. Anna Morse and Mrs Emery confirmed Morse visited them at Weybosset St. The house was a duplex and Mrs Horace Kingsley occupied the apartment above. She saw Morse come to the house 'early in the forenoon' and that she heard the trouble he had at the door and saw him as he was going away. She was getting her dinner at the time, and it was after 11 o'clock, although she did not notice him as he was going away.'(Rebello Page 121)

The conductor of this car yesterday was a 'spare' named Whittaker, and the News has been unable to find him today, as he would probably remember the circumstances of the six priests and Mr Morse riding with him. Mr Morse's story has, however, been confirmed, as far as the priests being on the car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset Engine House, about where Mr Morse took the car, and that he took it's time and it was just about 22 minutes after 11 o'clock.'

A Mr Henry Clarke wrote to Attorney Phillips in March 1938 to clarify what he had witnessed on the morning the Bordens were murdered. Mr Clarke was a clerk for the Fall River Street Department. The city was constructing a sewer on Alden St in 1892.

'I walked up Pleasant Street but missing the street car I continued walking down Pleasant Street, westerly, on the south side. When I reached a point between Stafford Square and Fourteenth Street....I was accosted by a man, walking in an easterly direction who inquired of me where Weybosset Street was and to which street I directed him. This I believe was between 9 and 9:30 am.

One evening afterwards I was at the Post Office and I noticed quite a crowd following a man who was going to the Post Office.

I asked someone, what the crowd was for and was told they were following this man, whose name was Mr Morse and was connected with the Borden murders. I recognised him as the man who made the inquiry as stated above.
signed Henry W. Clarke.

The letter is now with the Fall River Historical Society.

New Bedford Sunday Standard Times May 1934.

Attorney Arthur Phillips, who assisted the Lizzie defence team recalled the following information about John V Morse's alibi. "Although Morse was at first suspected of the crime, he presented a complete alibi and was almost immediately cleared from the police inquiry. After leaving the Borden house early in the morning Morse had taken a street car to Wyebosset Street from the centre of the city and was there till both murders had been discovered. He furnished the police with the number on the street car which he had taken, the number on the conductor's cap and the names of the persons he had seen or met. To a certainty, he was not in the Borden house when the murders were committed, but nevertheless, he had to have a police guard to protect him from infuriated mobs."

So even Phillips did not believe that Morse doubled back to Second St in order to assist in the murders (or to let anyone into the house). He was where he said he was, visiting relatives miles away.

[RGJ]

I don't think Morse was at the Borden's house at the time of the murder. He was crafting his alibi. (c'mon...the number off the conductor's hat?

[Curryong]

It's the Botna Valley Bank, Hastings and it comes up several times.

There have been some very sceptical people on this Forum since 2003 but they have all had to accept that Morse had an alibi, what's more it's been an alibi that's stuck. There have been accusations of Morse's involvement for over a hundred years, as well as Dave Anthony, Bridget, hired assassins bringing notes (hello Franz) Emma, homicidal burglars, William Borden. Trouble is, nobody has ever come up with any proof apart from theory.

[Curryong]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RPPC-Postcard-Z ... 3cecba49a1

[RGJ]

There have been some very sceptical people on this Forum since 2003 but they have all had to accept that Morse had an alibi, what's more it's been an alibi that's stuck. There have been accusations of Morse's involvement for over a hundred years, as well as Dave Anthony, Bridget, hired assassins bringing notes (hello Franz) Emma, homicidal burglars, William Borden. Trouble is, nobody has ever come up with any proof apart from theory.

Reread my first post: "Morse exits in the morning, casts out his way too detailed alibi, and returns to the house."

[RGJ]

And, something else. The fact that some tabloid journalist or the Pinkerton detective of questionable motives reports a "healthy balance" (300? $5000? $50,000?) gives no insight to what John Morse, who just is realizing he can not attract a mate at "about 60" might have in his head. He doesn't have to be looking at flat broke -- maybe that is our scale. He may be comparing it to upper middle instead of middle upper, and figuring life will be grand when he gets his net worth up to "X" and the babes comes marching in.

Maybe he wants to hire that maid and cook and not have to board with someone.I can't imagine your a'courting life is that smoking when you have to bring the hot Victorian mama back to meet your housemates.

The "not desperate" by American standards (or your country) reminds me here of the people who argue it can't have been an intruder because he would have had to spend an hour killing tiime. It was killing time for him. Maybe that was the happiest hour of his whole life.

Why is that even mentioned as a concern in the crime??

[Curryong]

You are ascribing a lot of motives for John Morse that just aren't there. What makes you think that he wanted to be married at his age in 1892?

'Mr John Morse, a prosperous farmer who lives south of Hastings, was in the city last Monday....'
Mills County Tribune December 1892.

Funny how none of the people living in Hastings Iowa ever gossiped about John Morse going broke, or being in financial trouble before, during or after the murders. He would have had to sell his farm or heavily mortgage it and liquidate any shares he owned in Mass. if he was in such a financial mess? Surely your researches in the local newspapers of the time have brought up a hint of this. No? He was a well-known character around town.

By the way, I forgot to mention in a previous post that Morse sold a 120 acre farm and a house in Hastings to Albert Hatfield in December 1904 for $10,500. It was secured by a mortgage at 4% interest due in March 1915. There was a balance of $7,000 owing at the time of Morse's death. More property! So that was more cash. You inferred Morse was broke in 1892 and was struggling at the time of his death. That's quite clearly not so.
I've offered plenty of proof that he wasn't. Looking forward to seeing documentation backing your theory.

Page 426 John Cunningham testimony Lizzie Borden trial Volume 1.

Q Did you do anything else?

A. In the back part of the house?

Q. Yes, what did you do?

A.Tried the cellar door.

Q. How was it?

A. It was locked.

Cunningham and two local reporters were the first people on the scene after Bowen and Mrs Churchill, and Officer Allen who also checked the cellar door and found it locked. Allen was at the house at 11:15am.

So my question to you is ---How did the killer escape after the murder, knowing that the front door was and remained triple locked. Lizzie stated in her inquest testimony that she was in the barn eating pears and looking out of the loft window towards the house. She then came out of the barn and came towards the house. She saw no-one.

I don't believe her testimony as I believe she was in the house cleaning herself up, but that is neither here nor there. If she was in the house then how did she miss him, considering the layout of the house? The cellar door was locked. So, how did he get out?

The intruder theory has flaws, whatever the mental condition of the burglar.
It is mentioned as a concern in the crime because of the layout of the house and how he managed to get in and out silently without being seen by anyone.

[taosjohn]

He or she got out while Lizzie was in the barn and Bridget was in her room. Anyone else simply failed to notice because it looked routine.

My perceptions on this stuff are heavily colored by an experience during the Christmas season of 1978; I was working in the stock department of a major department store, and one Saturday afternoon after finishing some overtime I was near an exit looking over some on-sale socks. The sales floor was quite busy.

Presently a bunch of the security guys, five or six, came rushing by to the door, and I realized what I had seen maybe ninety seconds before, but not registered at all: about a ten year old kid walking past and out the door with an unboxed color tv in his hands.

He walked by me--us, there were probably a dozen people in the immediate area-- without a care in the world, as though he did it every day, and neither I nor anyone else saw anything odd about it. I had looked right at him...

If the security guys hadn't come chasing him, I'm pretty sure I'd have no memory of him at all; and I imagine I'd agree that no one could possibly have gotten out of the Borden house unseen. One of the security guys had been looking right at him when he picked the TV up off the display shelf after turning it off and unplugging it and it didn't compute to him until the kid had a couple minutes head start...

So I'll repeat what I think I said before-- the collective memories of the bystanders about comings and goings is a timeline of what they noticed-- but not necessarily of what they saw. If they thought they were looking at Bridget going in and coming out, they in effect were... people see what they expect to see, and may entirely miss what "claims" to belong.

[Curryong]

I don't believe that Lizzie was in the barn. If she was she testified that she was looking through the window which incorporates a view of the side door of the Borden house and saw nothing.

The 1890's was a much more leisurely unhurried time than our own. People on that hot August day had time to stand and stare. There was for instance a group standing talking outside Wade's store three doors down from No. 92, at the time Andrew must have been murdered. Nobody saw any male walk, run, ride or skip out of the Borden property into the street. Mrs Borden over the road was sitting watching out of a front window for her daughter to come home. She was directly opposite. No male came out, which, as the Bordens had been ill (she was Abby's friend) she would surely have noted.

[Curryong]

These posts are really getting out of sequence here for some reason. A post of mine went into the ether which talked about the Harringtons. Philip Harrington who didn't like Lizzie wasn't a relative of the Borden/Morse clan. He became a police Captain but died early shortly after his marriage. Hiram Harrington was married to Lurana who was Andrew Borden's younger sister. They had one son who died young. Hiram lied and said he had been to see Lizzie after the murders and later gave an imaginative interview to the Press about it.

When I first joined the Forum I became interested in the ancestry of some of the Borden and Morse families. Very early threads here are a treasure trove as people like Kat and Harry really dug around and did some tremendous verified research which they posted. There is an early article in The Hatchet called 'The elusive John Morse' by Joe Carlson June/July 2004 which fills in some of his history.

Kat quotes from this article in an early thread 'Borden Book Club' in which they discuss various aspects of Victoria Lincoln's book on Lizzie. However Kat refers to Joseph Morse as Anna's brother and in John Morse's will (Rebello) John refers to Joseph and his sister Ora as the children of his sister Mary Louisa, who married her first cousin Joseph Morse, and Anna as the daughter of his brother William Bradford Morse of Excelsior, Minnesota. Anna's mother, Ann Mason Morse, was sister to Caroline Mason, who married Henry Augustus Gardiner and started the branch that Emma Borden was so fond of. (Fernando Morse (John's brother) served in the Civil War as an infantryman, by the way.

Mary Morrison, who may have been Rhoda Morrison's sister, married Anthony Morse's brother, Charles. She died in Fall River four days before the murders and it may have been that event that brought Anna back to Fall River.

[RGJ]

You are ascribing a lot of motives for John Morse that just aren't there. What makes you think that he wanted to be married at his age in 1892?

I saw a reference last month, which of course I carefully filed for a challenge just as this :-( about how Morse made a sudden effort at socialization. It specifically mentioned upgrading his buggy, which had been a one plank seat, into something more likely to spur female endorphins (or whatever that is called). also mentioend an upgrade in clothes, and further mentioned be then gave up and reverted to his old penny-pinch ways.

I'll look for it.