Lizzie Picture

[MysteryReader]

There was a picture of Lizzie as a child- I'd place her to be about 10-14 here on the forum. I can't find it. She was looking to her left and had what appears to be a white lace gathered at her neck. I'm looking for the picture here because someone said it wasn't her but in the book, it says it was. i wanted to compare the two.

[twinsrwe]

Hmmm, the only one I can think of is this one, which was taken in 1877, when Lizzie was 17 years old:

Lizzie at age 17.jpg

[irina]

Twins posted the one you describe and it has long been said to be Lizzie as a girl. The one people question~can't be Lizzie because of the ear lobes in fact~is of a much younger girl with a funny hat. That one is easy to find online, say in a google lay out of images of Lizzie.

[twinsrwe]

I don’t know if this will help, but back in July of 2014, we were discussing the photo of ‘Lizzie as a school girl’, in the thread titled, Lizzie on Pinterest.

Here is the link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5421&p=87941

[MysteryReader]

My post just got lost! This IS the picture of Lizzie I was thinking of. It was listed in Parallel Lives, page 60. The book is written mainly from letters, documents, etc. that people have had for generations. I'm reading right about the time of Lizzie's education as a child/high school years. It's very interesting because some say that as a child, Lizzie had varying moods just like her mother.

[Curryong]

I don't know whether Lizzie enjoyed her schooldays very much. She was a conscientious student but not a particularly exceptional one. Lizzie didn't have any friends as a schoolgirl.

[twinsrwe]

My post just got lost! ....

Oh, no!!! If I were you, I'd send a PM to Stefani to see she knows why this sort of thing happens. Something I do before I submit anything, is to make a copy of what I am posting. It stays on my clipboard until I copy over it; this beats having to type my thoughts over!

... This IS the picture of Lizzie I was thinking of. It was listed in Parallel Lives, page 60. ...

I thought it was from the description you gave of it.

... I'm reading right about the time of Lizzie's education as a child/high school years. It's very interesting because some say that as a child, Lizzie had varying moods just like her mother.

I have previously heard this about Lizzie's and her mood swings. I agree, it is very interesting.

[MysteryReader]

Curry,

I'm actually reading a list of school friends but it wasn't many- apparently, she was a very shy girl. I don't think she enjoyed school, either but was suppose to be smart. Twins, I didn't know about her mood swings but I don't put thought on mood swings ( I'm female)

[twinsrwe]

... Twins, I didn't know about her mood swings but I don't put thought on mood swings ( I'm female)

I hear ya!!! All of us females know that mood swings are nothing to split hairs over, don't we?

[MysteryReader]

... Twins, I didn't know about her mood swings but I don't put thought on mood swings ( I'm female)

I hear ya!!! All of us females know that mood swings are nothing to split hairs over, don't we?

Nope!

[MysteryReader]

I don't know whether Lizzie enjoyed her schooldays very much. She was a conscientious student but not a particularly exceptional one. Lizzie didn't have any friends as a schoolgirl.

Lizzie had roughly 6 friends from what we would call middle school to early high school. Lizzie didn't finish her education past the 9th grade (speculation has it that her father took her out and didn't let her return). Apparently only 3 of the girls remained friends with Lizzie through adulthood, one of which was Addie (Adeline Maria Allen), to whom Lizzie presented a set of engraved glassware, of which a singular tumbler survives ( p.77-78).

According to Parallel Lives, "...Lizzie, as a scholar was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies with application always held a good rank in her class." (p.68) But according to someone else, "...Lizzie was, for whatever reason, a girl who was kept out of circulation by her father." (p. 78)

[debbiediablo]

I sorta remember mood swings.....way way way back when.

[twinsrwe]

Good one, Debbie!

[Curryong]

That's interesting, MysteryReader. Who were the others, I wonder?
Also interesting, 'a girl who was kept out of circulation by her father.' Andrew being anti-social or...? How old was she at that time?

I actually meant to type MANY friends rather than any because of course she had Augusta Poole, later Tripp, didn't she, and, from Rebello (Page 10) 'We find her at the Morgan Grammar School when 14. Then she was a stout, blooming, strapping lass. Her great characteristic was keeping to herself. She had one and one only chum, a girl of about her own age, who is now married and lives in Rhode Island. Her exclusiveness was just because it was her nature. She had a sharp, sarcastic tongue, and was inclined to use it when not let alone.'

Martins, Michael, "A Volume of Sentiment", Fall River Historical Society Quarterly Report, vol 5, No 5, Winter/1994:2.

So that's two, unless both refer to Augusta, who might have moved on to Rhode Island.

I, of course, NEVER have mood swings. I can't understand people accusing me of having any. It's very puzzling!

[debbiediablo]

What the !!@!$#@! do you mean mood swings? I don't have !!@!$#@! mood swings, and who the !!@!$#@! are you to tell me I do???!?!!?!?

So, what you all planning for New Years Eve?

[twinsrwe]

Curry and Debbie regarding mood swings: You two are funny!!!

[twinsrwe]

Lizzie had roughly 6 friends from what we would call middle school to early high school. Lizzie didn't finish her education past the 9th grade (speculation has it that her father took her out and didn't let her return). Apparently only 3 of the girls remained friends with Lizzie through adulthood, one of which was Addie (Adeline Maria Allen), to whom Lizzie presented a set of engraved glassware, of which a singular tumbler survives ( p.77-78).

According to Parallel Lives, "...Lizzie, as a scholar was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies with application always held a good rank in her class." (p.68) But according to someone else, "...Lizzie was, for whatever reason, a girl who was kept out of circulation by her father." (p. 78)

In Rebello, Mrs. Holmes talks about Lizzie, pg. 8+:

"Lizzie Borden: Her School, and Later Life, Noble Woman Though Retiring," Boston Herald, August 7, 1892: 6.

"Mrs. Charles J. Holmes and unidentified friends of Lizzie's were interviewed by the Boston Herald. A partial listing of comments are listed below.

'As a child, she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has been erroneously interpreted. ...At the usual age, she was sent to the Morgan Street School, embracing primary and grammar grades. ...As a scholar, she was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies and with application, always held a good rank. ...She entered high school about 15 or 16 years old. It was then held in a wooden building on the corner of June and Locust Streets, which was removed when the present mammoth structure [Bradford Matthew Chaloner Durfee High School was dedicated on June 15, 1887] was presented to the city.'

'Her life was uneventful during the few years following her leaving school. She abandoned her piano music lessons because, although making encouraging progress, she conceived the idea that she was not destined to become a good musician.'

'When a young girl, she accompanied her parents to Chicago and was there a member of the Sunday school class and punctual in attendance.'

'She was a girl who set up ideals and then tried hard to reach them. She was a girl who never danced in her life, and never attended parties where there was dancing. After her admission to the church, she even stopped attending theatrical performances.'

'She had an eye for the beautiful, and used to arrange the vestry for the orange teas and socials at the church and when complimented on her work would modestly disclaim credit ...'

'She was a great reader, and had a wonderful memory for books and writers by the hour. Lizzie read everything, Emerson and Carlyle, and all standard novels down to the popular stories of the day. Her father always had a good library.'"

[MysteryReader]

Curry and Debbie- you crack me up! I've only been married for almost 5 years and I think I've apologized to my husband more then than I have in my whole life.

I'll have to get my list out- I did jot the ones down that I've found so far. There were 1-3 where the relationship didn't make it to adulthood and at least 2 where she sent them either glasses (1 tumbler has lasted this long in the family) and a set of dishes used specifically for some sort of sweet meat (I'll include it entirely so you'll know what I'm talking about) that apparently has been passed down from generation to generation.

As schooling goes- she went to 9th grade and that was it. I don't know if Andrew was anti-social or what because he paid for Emma to go to Wheaton (not sure how long or if that was the boarding school mentioned).

[MysteryReader]

A list of Lizzie's friends - I am paraphrasing unless I place it in quotations:

Fannie C. Hunton- collecting autographs was a popular pastime for young ladies during that time. It is not sure if the friendship lasted since Lizzie only attended one year of high school. She signed it "Yours very sincerely, Lizzie A. Borden."

(Addie) Adelaide B. Whipp- She lived close to Lizzie but it's not sure how good a friend she was (however, Lizzie did leave her $1000 in her will).

(Lou) Lucy S. Macomber- also received $1000 in Lizzie's will. They were friends due (possibly) to their love of music. Lizzie appears to have been friends with Addie and Lucy but no records of communication survived.

(Minnie) Mary A. Baker- Not sure if she was a friend of Lizzie's but she did ask her to sign her autograph book (they were classmates).

(Rachie) Rachel B. Almy- friends with Minnie and Lizzie. Their fathers were business partners and close friends.

(Evy) Nancy Eveline Buck- Evy and Minnie enjoyed a life long friendship but Evy and Lizzie ceased to be friends later.

** An interesting point- in 1920, Lizzie apparently bought the "Baker Lot" from Minnie Baker through Charles Clarke Cook, her financial adviser.**

There is no records of whether Minnie and Lizzie remained friends through adulthood.

(Lottie) Charlotte Elizabeth Grosvenor Cook (sister to Charles) was a friend of Lizzie's. She also loved music which might have been the cement to their friendship.

(Another Addie) Adeline Maria Allen- no evidence if they were close friends or merely school friends. However, Addie admitted later that they were friends and distantly related through 18th century New England Settler John Bowen. It's also possible that Lizzie met her older brother and bought his house on "the Hill."
Maintained some semblance of a friendship with Lizzie into the 20th century; and, Lizzie presented Addie with a set "of engraved glassware, of which a singular tumbler survives." (p. 77-78)

(Lulie) Louisa Holmes Stillwell kept a diary and mentioned Lizzie briefly in it. The diary was more of what her 14-16 years was like. However, it's interesting to note that it was Lulie's first cousins, Mary Louisa and Anna Covell Holmes were part of Lizzie's social set and with whom she was supposed to vacation in Marion, MA in 1892. It was to Lulie that Lizzie gave a set of "sweet meat dishes that have descended through Lulie's family." (p.89-90).

[twinsrwe]

Excellent post, Mystery! Interesting information, thanks for posting it.

[MysteryReader]

'She was a girl who set up ideals and then tried hard to reach them. She was a girl who never danced in her life, and never attended parties where there was dancing. After her admission to the church, she even stopped attending theatrical performances.' '"

Well I wonder if that is why she wasn't listed at some of the get togethers by the girls I mentioned in my earlier post? Also, we know that she continued to go to the theater as an adult so it must have been as a teen/young adult that she stopped.

[MysteryReader]

It is only assumed that Lizzie went to Morgan Street School but "it appears that her earliest years were spent at either the Canal Street or Columbia Street School, both of which were for primary grades and located within a block of her home on Ferry Street. But it was not strictly the fact that these schoolhouses were appropriate to her grade level and located in close proximity to Ferry Street that support the idea that she would have attended there; the Morgan Street School was not even a consideration as it did not offer primary grades and was not constructed until 1868, with its first students not attending until the following year." (p.52), Parallel Lives.

Something I didn't know was that while X amount of students went into the high school, only X graduated. It appears that Lizzie was among the normal when she didn't continue past her 9th grade.

[Curryong]

That doesn't mean, of course, that Rebello was wrong and that Lizzie never attended Morgan as a young teenager, which she would have been in the 1870's. Len Rebello was very meticulous when researching 'Lizzie Borden: Past and Present'.

MysteryReader, I can't wait to get my copy of 'Parallel Lives'. It seems chock-full of good pieces of information. Who knew that Lizzie had so many school friends, several of whom continued to be friends in later life. That gloomy lonely recluse I read about in so many Lizzie books when I first became interested in her seems to have been a myth.

[Curryong]

My plans for New Years Eve are a bit up in the air at the moment. Several members of the family are talking about maybe going into the city. Melbourne always puts on a show and concerts on NYE, with fireworks at midnight. That's fine but the crowds sometimes get too much, especially if it is very hot. Otherwise, one lot of neighbours are having a party so I might go over there and have a few drinky-winks to see 2015 in. Just have to see how the weather progresses tomorrow.

[MysteryReader]

Curry! I can't wait either!! Oh, my hubby weighed it at 6.5 pounds & some odd ounces

I do want to read a copy of Robello maybe, one day. She probably did attend there as an older child/younger teen. Here, students are 13-14 in the 9th grade (I was 13 but a year younger than my peers). I always thought she was a loner from what I had previously read. Right now, I'm reading about the rest of Fall River and how the wealthy were set apart from others. Also, how the town grew up.

[twinsrwe]

'She was a girl who set up ideals and then tried hard to reach them. She was a girl who never danced in her life, and never attended parties where there was dancing. After her admission to the church, she even stopped attending theatrical performances.' '"

Well I wonder if that is why she wasn't listed at some of the get togethers by the girls I mentioned in my earlier post? Also, we know that she continued to go to the theater as an adult so it must have been as a teen/young adult that she stopped.

Yes, I think you are right. This is probably why she was not listed at some of the get togethers by the girls you mentioned.

I also believe you are correct in stating that this would have been when she was a teen/young adult.

[Curryong]

Lizzie did go to dances as an adult though. There are posts in threads here that mention it. I think she changed somewhat after 1885 as she found new interests in her Chuch activities and new acquaintances/friends.

[MysteryReader]

I don't know about dances, Curry but everyone was talking about how she enjoyed the theater. Right now, I find it boring, the part about the town. Of course, in 1843, a lot of the town burned and had to be rebuilt. I'm reading about the wealthiest male was B.M.C. Durfee and he was only 17!