DANGER in the house!

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:52 am

Why didn't Mrs Churchill urge Lizzie to get out of that house?

Why didn't she herself feel the need to flee?

Wouldn't you think she would fear danger on the premises?

Why didn't she or Bridgett just "yoo-hoo" up the stairs for Abby? Why did she go up there? Why not wait for a man to go?

Most of us have an opinion as to why Lizzie wasn't afraid to be in the house "alone" and without male protection--But why was Mrs Churchill so brave?

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:52 am

I'd guess from the shock of the situation & you just don't think of things from a logical perspective at such a time. I'm sure this was Mrs Churchill's first murder situation. They hovered around the kitchen/back entry for the first little while. Quite quickly others started to come. I suppose the 1st instinct was to stay & wait for help to arrive. Also, I think Mrs Churchill was wanting to help in any way she could.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:57 am

A big part of the issue is probably that the police wondered why she would send Bridget away from the house and stay there alone unless she knew what had actually happened.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:29 pm

I think Mrs. Churchill's nerve about going upstairs to look for Abby could've been bolstered by the fact that there were others in the house with her at that time, and Bridget did go with her. I think it was a sort of "safety in numbers" thing. I think they were very cautious when going up the stairs or they would not have spotted Abby as they did. Who would think to look under the bed from the stairs unless they were petrified? I see them walking up the stairs slowly, peeking through the railing before going all the way up, this is how I picture it when I think of it. Maybe it's just because I am short, ( 5'4") but I could not see under the bed from where they claim they were without standing on my tip toes. As to why she did not urge Lizzie to leave, she really didn't know the situation inside the house. Maybe she believed the house was safe because Lizzie sent Bridget away which left her there alone.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:32 pm

It is also odd that they did not go up the stairs that led to Andrew and Abby's bedroom if they were looking for Abby. I agree with Audrey, why not a quick shout "hey, anybody up there"? before they started up the stairs.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:55 pm

They knew Abby was not up backstairs as they had gone there for a sheet to cover Andrew. (Which I would not have done with a fresh corpse in the sitting room!)

But it is still odd--- I would have called up the stair well for Abby-- or at the very least I would have yelled out something like "I have a weapon here!"

Maybe it was different back then!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:05 pm

Charles Sawyer, who came with Officer Allen, was assigned to guard the side door. He was there when Addie & Bridget went upstairs. Allen had already walked through the house and checked the locks on the front door. He also checked a closet in the kitchen that was "nigh the stove". He did not go upstairs however.

Allen told Sawyer to let no in or out except police officers, while he, Allen, went back to the police station.

I would have thought the ladies would have asked Sawyer to go and check upstairs.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:17 pm

Harry @ Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:05 pm wrote:

I would have thought the ladies would have asked Sawyer to go and check upstairs.

Exactly! I don't think he would have left his post though!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:39 pm

I don't think Sawyer knew exactly what he was supposed to do. Quite a few people gained entrance, including newspapermen, during his watch. He was not a policeman and apparently wasn't even aware there was a murder for quite some time.

What's even weirder about the Addie/Bridget trip is Bridget dashing headlong into the guest room by herself. At least Addie had the good sense to skedaddle out of there.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:47 pm

I've been trying to fathom this from the point of would this fear of the killer still lurking in the house be an animal instinct; fight or flee, or would it be more of fear with knowledge? Knowledge like we have today of killers and murderers, books and books on it, movies, TV shows, etc. We today, after viewing this material, would definitely have a suspicion that a killer might still be lurking. But, would a person from 1892, and a lady at that, have that kind of knowledge or foresight? Perhaps with Addie it was just a simple lack of that sort knowledge? Not that murders didn't happen then, but, were all the facts and info available to them then?

Or could it have been simply the way Lizzie told Mrs. Churchill about Andrew's murder that she got the idea that the killer had come and gone before Lizzie even stepped foot into the house? Maybe Mrs. Churchill had a false sense of security then?

Bridget seemed to be the only one with any common sense that day, she didn't want to go upstairs by herself. But, she did go into the guest room alone, did Addie at least wait on the stairs until Bridget came out or did she go down right away at the discovery of Abby's body?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:53 pm

That is a good point Susan.... And I did wonder about the culture of the times.

I think we tend to think of Victorian ladies as sheltered and weak-- and they may have been sheltered-- but they dealt with death and illness more than we do and had autopsies performed on their dining room tables!!!

Miller · Post by **Miller** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:56 pm

I recal reading Officer Allen testifying to checking the cellar door as well, but I'm not certain if this was on his first trip or second trip to the house.

I agree with Harry's remarks about Churchill.

We must remember the discovery of Andrew's body had the same horrific impact to the discovery of the Sharon Tate (et. al) murders. It had that kind of impact. Perhaps some here are too young to remember the impact of that 45 years ago!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:21 pm

You know, I hadn't really thought about the man being there tho the women were sent upstairs to find Abby.

Sawyer at the inquest gets his times a bit wrong but admits he didn't check a clock.

Here is something odd. He was across the street at 81 Second Street- about catty-corner north from Mrs. Burt's house (who lives next door to Mrs. Churchill)- and yet it took a man from Providence to tell these gentlemen collected there at Augustus E. Rich Machinist* that Andrew had been stabbed.
*(Rebello, map, pg. 562-3)

Why would this be?

Inquest
Sawyer
136
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. Charles S. Sawyer.
Q. Where do you live?
A. At 78 Second Street.
Q. How far is that from the Borden House?
A. The third house.
Q. The third house south?
A. The third house north.
Q. This way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. On the same side of the street?
A. Yes Sir.
...........
Q. What was the first you saw that attracted your attention with reference to this matter?
A. I was in the machine shop opposite where I live, and a gentleman came in there, a drummer from Providence, and he reported that a man named Borden just above here had been stabbed. I started out to make some inquiries, and as I stood talking with three gentlemen at the foot of the stairs, this was up stairs, I saw Miss Alice Russell going up on the other side of the street. Knowing that she had been a near neighbor, and quite intimate with the girls, of course I went over to inquire if she had heard. She told me yes she had heard, and was going right up there; so I followed along to see if I could get any particulars about it. I went as far as the gate. She did not seem to be very talkative, but considerably excited.

.......
139 (46)
Q. Have you any way of fixing the time when the thing was told you by this Providence man?
A. Not exactly. While I was up in that machine shop, this gentleman came in and reported it, and he told a man there afterwards that he came from Providence that morning, and had landed at the Mellen House. I judged that he came from the Mellen House direct to his store, I judged from that he came on the half past ten o’clock train, although it seemed to me a little earlier than [that]. I thought I was there about eleven or a little before. I might be mistaken, I did not note, or look at the time.
Q. Who was the man?
A. He sells machinist supplies for a firm in Providence. I suppose Mr. Rich could tell that. I have seen him once or twice there, but I dont know who the man was.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:32 pm

[Edit here] In order to be clear and without changing my wording, I am highlighting certain phrases of my post-

Simple correction: Tho I have made fake pictures of the bodies of Andrew & Abby on the dining room table, they weren't really autopsied there on the table or laid out there on the table.

Sawyer says at the inquest that he heard Andrew had been stabbed, and he asked Mrs. Churchill in a bit if he was dead and she told him yes he is dead. But then he was supposedly told that Abby had died of fright.
So I'm not sure that the impact was quite the Manson murders type impact at least not for a while. Even Alice Russell didn't know Andrew had been murdered until Morse came, and that was 11:45 minimum.

Mrs. Churchill allegedly told him:
"She says 'Mrs. Borden is dying, I think from the shock'."

After Morse came, I think the gravity of the event finally became known and the "impact" was then large.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:41 pm

I agree with Susan that people in 1892 had not been exposed to anywhere near the level of crime scene things that we have, so it's very hard to judge their actions/reactions. None of us really know how we'd act if suddenly hit with a similar situation.

I think the whole "Abby died of fright" rumor started from a misunderstanding of Bowen's words. In the trial, he said when he stood at the door to the guest room, his 1st thought was that she had fainted, but when he walked around the bed, he saw the blood & judged she had been killed by the same means as Andrew. Probably someone overhearing him explain things this way misunderstood & started that rumor going.

I always kind of liked that quote from Alice saying, "That was when I knew it was cold blooded murder." So, even she had a big confusion about what was really going on...& she was such a practical, level headed person!

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:47 pm

BTW Audrey -- every time I see your signature/gif I hear the French national anthem in my head! It's very evocative!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:45 am

Dr. Bowen had been there and left.

Officer Allen had been there and left.

Sawyer was still there.

I think they just assumed the house was safe.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:42 am

I'm wondering how the man from Providence could know of the affray on Second Street if he came straight from the Mellen House to the Street. It was at least as early as the time that Alice appeared on Second Street. She was probably rushing right by Sawyer, and as he stood across the street, she coming from the north.
It's weird.

Anyway, is the Mellen House near the police station?

john · Post by **john** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:54 am

Another point of interest, if Lizzie did it, why wake Bridgett up so soon?

john · Post by **john** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:55 am

Normally a perpetrator lets someone else discover the crime.

Miller · Post by **Miller** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:37 am

kat, you went to a lot trouble to try to illustrate that what I said about the Borden murders having the same kind of horrific impact as the Sharon Tate (et.al.) murders was, in your opinion, not so. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough in my post. Whereas you were trying to make a case by citing the arrivals and movements of specific early arriving indidivudals, I was refering to the case in general. When "the counry" heard about it. The mass media coverage, the fear of people, the discussions in the homes, continuous front page coverage of the legal proceedings, etc.

The murders were compared to the "Granite Mill fire" (September 17, 1874) in an excitable early newspaper report; it was described as "a horrible crime, an impossible crime. It was discussed in homes across the nation and across the Atlantic. And where Manson is still an evil icon, I poor Lizzie remains a vicious "axe" wielding persona over a century later.

The "impact" was in drawing comparison of the horror, notoriety, public interest, etc. of the two cases.

Sometimes when a peson is so deteremined to present an opposing viewpoint, they miss the forest for the trees.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:34 am

Kat @ Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:42 am wrote:I'm wondering how the man from Providence could know of the affray on Second Street if he came straight from the Mellen House to the Street. It was at least as early as the time that Alice appeared on Second Street. She was probably rushing right by Sawyer, and as he stood across the street, she coming from the north.
It's weird. Anyway, is the Mellen House near the police station?

Kat, the Mellen House was located on the corner of North Main St and Franklin St.

Current maps show the driving distance from 92 Second to the Mellen House to be 4/10's of one mile. Sargents was across the street from the Mellen House and a little futher north.

The distance to the Police Station from the Mellen House would be way less, only about 3 blocks. So it was within a few minutes of either location.

This Google map shows the relationships:

Balloon = Mellen House, P = Police Station/Court Room B = Borden house.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:14 am

meaning the guy from Providence knew because he happened to pass the Police station, which was then abuzz with the news?

diana · Post by **diana** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:43 pm

That makes a lot of sense. I'm going to go with that surmise for now. I'd asked this question back in June, 2003 -- under the heading 'the vinegar vendor and the man from Providence' -- but at that time we were sidetracked onto the topic of Sawyer buying vinegar at the Borden house.

So I'm happy now that Kat and Harry have provided this possible scenario as to how Sawyer learned of the murders from an out-of-towner. It's feasible the drummer from Providence heard the news as he passed the police station and as he was relaying it to the men in the machine shop, Sawyer saw Alice and came out to question her about it, then Allen came running up and asked Sawyer to accompany him to the house.

I think it fits together very nicely.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:56 pm

Tina-Kate @ Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:47 pm wrote:BTW Audrey -- every time I see your signature/gif I hear the French national anthem in my head! It's very evocative!

Thank you TK....

I love to look at the photos of your trip to the ol' south.... I love to see photos of the others on here and I do love to hear about people's fun times and adventures!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:04 pm

I have a fun story for you Auds...it happened to me last winter during a blizzard...

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:10 pm

Really?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:28 pm

Oh yes...it was awful...5 lonnng days without ANY power. I am SO glad our winter this year was much milder. I only had to get my snowblower out once. How has the Iowa winter been this year ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:49 am

Thank you Harry! Only you with your understanding of the locale could answer that so succinctly! That helps a lot.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:23 am

I've always been a little suspicious of Bridget's running into the guest room but the more I think about it, it appears less suspicious.

Bridget, when first called down by Lizzie, started for the sitting room and was stopped by Lizzie and sent off for Dr. Bowen.

On the steps, she reacted so quickly that Mrs. Churchill didn't have time or perhaps didn't even think of trying to stop her.

I can understand her wanting to see if she could help Abby as she said that she was fond of her and had stayed on only because of her. Her reaction actually seems more natural than Lizzie's to her father.

Bridget wanting to see Andrew was another matter. Perhaps just curiosity to see what happened.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:04 pm

i had the same thought about Bridget yesterday. i was thinking of how radin claimed that her reaction made her look guilty -- like she was pretending to discover something she already knew about. thinking about it now, i'm not sure exactly how radin was defining that. mrs. churchill also saw the form under the bed.

this actually makes sense. bridget was the first to view to view abby's body in dim light. she saw enough to suspect what it was. she does not presume that abby has been murdered as andrew was murdered -- she only responds to what is visible -- that abby is flat on the floor. passed out? sick? dead? you don't know, but of course you're going to go find out.

i don't have it handy right now, but that reminds me, i should read again what bridget and churchill both say about this again.

_____________

but back to those two going up to look for abby in the first place -- lizzie deliberately tried to get her lady friends to "find mrs. borden." deliberately did not yell out "hey mrs. b" -- has anyone figured that out? is it explained at all if lizzie is uncertain as to exactly where abby is or what condition she is in? there's still something about it i don't get -- in lizzie's thinking, what (in this context) is the difference between the women and the men?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:08 pm

Wasn't Bridget an "older" sister?

This, coupled with her being a servant may have made it that she got her esteem etc from helping and doing for others. A person with a "caretaker" mentality would probably run to the side of someone they thought was ill or needing help. When she saw Abby she may have known at once that Abby was gone...

john · Post by **john** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:52 pm

I would think someone would be trying to find the police instead of the step-mother.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:01 pm

Mr Churchill's quest for a doctor ended up bringing the police... They arrived relatively quickly and had been/gone and posted a guard before they looked for Abby.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:23 pm

I think Bridgett most certainly knew something,
DUH of course she did.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:01 am

I tend to think she did, also. I don't know if it was during the act or after the fact of either one of the killings. She really is in worse shape, alibi-wise than anyone! Upstairs dozing while the master is killed? Actually IN the house...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:44 am

Miller @ Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:56 pm wrote:I recal reading Officer Allen testifying to checking the cellar door as well, but I'm not certain if this was on his first trip or second trip to the house.

I've checked Allen at the trial and on his second visit, there were already people in the cellar, so that door from the hall into the cellar could not be checked by him. He went down and then did say he checked the cellar interior door and it was bolted. That's the door from the cellar to the steps which lead to the outside door in the back.

Earlier he had checked the front door and the "clothes press" in the kitchen, before he left the first time. It sounds like he looked in the front entry closet as well.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:32 am

Nancie @ Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:23 pm wrote:I think Bridgett most certainly knew something,
DUH of course she did.

She had to have... Of all the people connected to the case I am willing to wager she had the best finger on the "pulse" of that house

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:32 pm

what loyalty and devotion, stubborness, New England pride, whatever it is called. Lips were sealed shut, forever! (darn!)

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:11 pm

I have to wonder if Bridget's reticence was due to self-preservation? I don't think she had any illusions with the anti-Irish sentiment of the day, I wonder if she thought that she would be suspected? I suppose if she knew something about what went on that day, she could then spill her guts. But, until then, perhaps she decided it was safer to keep her mouth shut and see how things went?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:01 am

What are anyone's thoughts on why Lizzie might want the women to find Abby, rather then the men (per Eugene)?
Was it just a matter of timing?

I was at the scene of a hanging. I ran up the stairs and was about to enter and turn to see the body- but stopped cold in my tracks- and asked myself "Do you really want to see this?"
The answer was "No" , and I retreated- like Mrs. Churchill.
Maybe Bridget was young and spontaneous.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:11 am

take the three reactions to the sight of abby's body -- apparently, from some distance firstly, NOT up close. isn't this an important factor in the reactions?

1. bowen thinks she ran and fainted.
2. bridget runs in as if to find out what's wrong with her.
3. mrs churchill withdraws immediately.

i'm asking, because i had never quite factored this in.

in connection to this, back to lizzie's talk with the women: had mrs. churchill already gathered from lizzie that in looking for abby, she was NOT looking for a living abby, but a dead body? did churchill anticipate a dead body up there, and therefore assume without going further?

IF bridget knew abby's slaughtered body was there -- why in the world rush into the room and look? (i know if you get a certain angle on something you can argue a fact FOR or AGAINST the same thing. but i still can't remember radin's reasoning.)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:52 am

Good post Eugene.

On Mrs. Churchill, I think she must have had a strong feeling that something was wrong upstairs.

Lizzie had said that she thought she heard her come in. Mrs. Churchill and Bridget had already been to the senior Bordens bedroom and Abby wasn't there. So if she assumed Lizzie was correct then Abby had to be in the front part of the house. Or way less likely the attic.

But then there was no noises coming from upstairs and there was no Abby coming down in reaction to the commotion in the sitting room, dining room and kitchen. The house is not that big that Abby would not have heard something.

Dr. Bowen, Officer Allen, Bridget Sullivan, Alice Russell, Mrs. Churchill, Charles Sawyer and Lizzie herself were all down stairs at one time or another before Addie and Bridget went up stairs. That's a lot of people not to hear. Of course Lizzie doesn't say when she thought she heard Abby come in and there lies the problem.

But I don't think her suspicions, if she had any, were based on what Lizzie had said.

diana · Post by **diana** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:45 pm

That is food for thought, Eugene.

In the witness statements, Mrs. Churchill is quoted as saying: "Bridget and I started. I think she led the way. We went up the front stairs, but I only went far enough to clear my eyes above the second floor. . . . I turned my head to the left, and through this door I could see under the bed of this room. . . . I saw what I thought to be a prostrate body. There was not much light in the room, so I could not distinguish clearly, but I knew the object was more than a mat. I felt certain it was Mrs. Borden. I then rushed down stairs, and entering the dining room, I doubled myself up, and uttered an exclamation of fright. Miss Alice Russell asked, is there another? I said yes, they killed her too, or something to that effect."

I'd never thought about how quickly Mrs. C. accepted the fact that Abby was dead and not just injured.

For some reason, this makes me feel more like Bridget wasn't involved. I guess because I tend to think that if she knew Abby was dead, she'd want Mrs. Churchill to go ahead of her and find the body, in order to keep her own involvement to a minimum.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:23 pm

It is very intersting how Lizzie distances herself from finding Abby. She orders Bridget around to go get the doctor, has the women look for Abby. Why wouldnt she go along with Bridget and Mrs. Churchill to look for Abby? Maybe she knew she could not pull off another hysterical reaction to events she already knew about, she was tired of acting and needed to sit this one out. She "thought" she heard Abby come in, when and where did she have this thought?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:59 am

You've got a point Scott. Lizzie had full use of her legs yet she never went to look. We think of her at this time as some sort of invalid.

Just a thought as to motive- why Bridget might have rushed in the room:
To make sure she had a reason to have blood on her hem?
Because she wanted the thrill of finding the body in front of everyone?
(There are some SICK killers out there...)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:03 am

Lizzie had the thought that she heard Abby had come in sometime within a small period of time while Mrs. Churchill had gone out and returned, I think?
We have boiled it down to a small amount of time when one of her saviors was sent out, and before they returned.

marc2296 · Post by **marc2296** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:33 pm

I guess the problem I have is, why did Lizzie tell Bridget to go get a doctor and not the police as she did state that her father was killed.
I do think it kida strange that she elected to stay in the house by herself after Bridget left.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:27 pm

I was just thinking -- Lizzie had mentioned (right after she found her father dead) that she thought she had heard Abby come in. I would think any other normal person's reaction to hearing someone in the house after knowing there had been a murder would not have automatically thought it was Abby, but would have gotten scared, thinking it may have been a murderer lurking about somewhere instead.

bsr88 · Post by **bsr88** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:30 pm

Angel @ Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:27 pm wrote:I was just thinking -- Lizzie had mentioned (right after she found her father dead) that she thought she had heard Abby come in. I would think any other normal person's reaction to hearing someone in the house after knowing there had been a murder would not have automatically thought it was Abby, but would have gotten scared, thinking it may have been a murderer lurking about somewhere instead.

You'd like to think this, but they didn't. The whole family was cracked, and Bridgette is, as you all say as well, very suspiscious. On my tour I give an interesting little tidbit: On the back of Bridgette's grave in Annaconda, Montana she had engraved "dig my grave wide and deep, all my secrets I shall keep".

Upon her death, a priest was called in because she had "dying confessions" she could not bear. Unfornatly she passed before the priest got there... anyway we wouldn't have been able to find out.