Did Lizzie ever name a suspect?

[camgarsky4]

Hi....I'm new to the Lizzie Borden 'addict club' and this website. Love reading all the back and forth banter.

Question to ponder......

Since Lizzie and Bridget are the only known individuals at the house during the two murders, did Lizzie ever express doubts about Bridget?

Hypothetically, Bridget could have killed Andrew after Lizzie "went out to the barn" and then Bridget could have scurried upstairs to change clothes and then dispose of the murder weapon and bloody clothes on one of her trips out of the house that day.

So if Lizzie was innocent, angry/saddened by the death of her father and frustrated by being accused herself, its seems like she would have also been trying to figure out who did it. If Lizzie was innocent, then shortly after the initial shock wore off, Bridget should have come to her mind as a potential and likely killer.....at least up to the point that Lizzie would confront her or make very vocal suggestion to the police.

I presume she never did accuse Bridget. If not, why not?

[twinsrwe]

Hello camgarsky4, welcome to the forum.

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Question to ponder......

Since Lizzie and Bridget are the only known individuals at the house during the two murders, did Lizzie ever express doubts about Bridget? …

I don't believe Lizzie ever gave any indication of Bridget being the killer.

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Hypothetically, Bridget could have killed Andrew after Lizzie "went out to the barn" and then Bridget could have scurried upstairs to change clothes and then dispose of the murder weapon and bloody clothes on one of her trips out of the house that day. …

Well, that is a very good theory, but I don’t believe that Lizzie ever went to barn. Lizzie was too clean for having been in the barn loft, eating pears, and going through rusty nails and what not. Witnesses claimed her hands were pristine, and if nothing else there should have been some sort of dirt/rust under her fingernails, and her dress should have had dust on it after being in a dusty loft.

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So if Lizzie was innocent, angry/saddened by the death of her father and frustrated by being accused herself, its seems like she would have also been trying to figure out who did it. If Lizzie was innocent, then shortly after the initial shock wore off, Bridget should have come to her mind as a potential and likely killer.....at least up to the point that Lizzie would confront her or make very vocal suggestion to the police. …

The girls did post a reward for anyone who may secure the arrest and convection of the person or persons, who occasioned the deaths of their father and his wife.

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I presume she never did accuse Bridget. If not, why not?

I don't know why Lizzie never accused Bridget of killing her father and his wife. I think she took a lot of secrets to the grave with her.

[camgarsky4]

Twins -- thanks for the response! I'm pretty old school when it comes to social media, so getting the response was a bit exciting!

I am on the "Lizzie was the actual killer" bandwagon. My instincts tell me that the sisters made this a joint decision over the previous couple weeks, but that Emma stayed away to lessen the 'household density' for the big day and because she likely lacked the 'constitution' to do what they felt needed to be done.

My best guess is that Andrew was intended to be killed in the afternoon when Bridget was away for her Thursday afternoon day off. However, he came home early and mentioned that John was coming for lunch. This forced Lizzie's hand, so she had to take action off script which resulted with the need to create a new alibi. So the barn visit story was birthed on the spot, replacing the original more reasonable alibi. However, with each telling, Lizzie realized the flaws and 'improved' the alibi....thus there ended up being 3-4 versions.

But for a second lets assume her final version was true and she was looking out the window at the same time her dad was being killed, she should have seen the killer racing out the back or side doors (front door locked). Somehow she didn't (sarcasm alert).

Then she goes into the house and finds her dad slaughtered, realizing that it had to have happened just minutes before. Does she scream and run out of the house? Does she scream and pick up a skillet or any other weapon to defend herself? Does she yell up to Bridget (or Abby) and ask if they were ok and to escape the house? No, she did none of this natural behaviors. Instead, Lizzie calls down the maid, tells her to go fetch a doctor and waits IN THE HOUSE for neighbor, maid and doctor to show up. Who does that?

I find very little about Lizzie's story plausible. The "lizzie didn't do it" voters would say that if she planned these murders, why would she have such a bad alibi. The answer to me seems clear....her time table was blown up by Andrew getting home earlier than planned and also inviting her Uncle for lunch. She had to act swiftly and then read and react to the situation afterwards.

She succeeded because she ended up living at Maplecroft for rest of her life.

[twinsrwe]

You’re very welcome for my response.

Like you, I also believe Lizzie was the killer, and Emma planted the seed of murder in Lizzie’s mind. I believe that Abby was the intended victim, because it makes no sense for someone to kill Abby in such a brutal manner, if Andrew were the intended victim. There is also the number of blows Abby received compared to the number of blows Andrew received; granted it was over kill for both victims, but Abby received almost twice the number of blows that Andrew did. Now, I could be wrong about that, because Lizzie had a lot more time to kill Abby, where she had a limited amount of time to kill Andrew, with Bridget getting up to make lunch and Uncle John expected to show up for lunch. I think Andrew was killed because he and Uncle John were about to make some major changes that would have greatly affected Emma and Lizzie.

I know different people react differently to any given situation, but in Lizzie’s case, I have to agree with you. If she was actually in the barn, as she says she was, then she would have had no idea if Bridget and Abby were still alive, or not, and if the killer was still in the house, or not. If she was not the killer, then she was incredibly stupid to stay in the house like she did, on the other hand, if she was the killer, then she was perfectly safe staying in the house.

I think you and I are pretty much on the same page when it comes to Lizzie Borden.

I don’t know if you have ever watched any of the shows on Deadly Women, or not. The host of that show is Candance DeLong, who is a former FBI criminal profiler and criminologist. One of the shows she presents is on Lizzie Borden. It would be well worth your time to watch this show, as a lot of great information is brought out. There are several people who experts on the Borden murders who are a part of the show. Stefani Koorey, who is also the administer of this forum, Michael Martins, Curator of the Fall River Historical Society, and Assistant Curator Dennis A. Binette, to name a few. Here is the link. (Please turn on the volume.): https://tinyurl.com/y9dozvkd

I don’t agree with some of the things that were presented in that show, and I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

[Marchesk]

Bridget could have hypothetically killed Andrew while Lizzie was in the barn, but it's very unlikely she could have also killed Abby without Lizzie at least knowing that Bridget had gone upstairs for a time in the front of the house, where the maid didn't belong, based on Lizzie placing herself downstairs the entire time in a house without halls to sneak past rooms. She did mention going down into the cellar briefly, but it wasn't enough time to not see Bridget either going to the front of the house or coming back. Lizzie didn't point the finger because she was downstairs messing around while her irons were supposedly heating up.

Apparently Lizzie had a theory about who did it according to friends later on in life, but she wouldn't say because of what she had gone through. She also claimed she would have begged in the streets to clear her name. So take that as you like.

[Marchesk]

I find very little about Lizzie's story plausible. The "lizzie didn't do it" voters would say that if she planned these murders, why would she have such a bad alibi.

The biggest problem with the Lizzie being innocent is how could she not have known someone was upstairs killing her stepmom in that locked house? I agree that her story that morning is very problematic and indicative of deception, and that things she said leading up to the murders are highly suspicious. To make Lizzie innocent, people have to concoct implausible theories like Uncle John hiding a a paid assassin upstairs in the guest bedroom, or Abby letting her killer in that morning without Lizzie knowing. But there's no evidence supporting an intruder (or unknown guest), and they would have to have been incredibly lucky to flee the house just in time for Lizzie not to have seen coming back from the barn, and without leading a bloody trail, since they had no time to cleanup.

Meanwhile, Lizzie has plenty of motive, with financial gain being commonplace among family murderers, and freedom being a good second reason. If it's too shocking to believe that a good upstanding Christian daughter could do such a thing, then how does one explain a Chris Watts or Xavier Dupont? Those are just as shocking and unbelievable.

[camgarsky4]

Twins -- thanks for sending the link....finally was able to watch the show. I was a bit surprised by how many errors there seemed to be. That said, it was a fun watch.

Is there evidence that Lizzie was actually cruel to animals as a child? That would be a clear indicator of a sociopath. Would pretty much seal the deal for whom I think did the murders.

Motive, means, opportunity AND a sociopath.

Is there anything beyond rumors that these acts of cruelty to animals truly happened?

[LABRhush]

Hey camgarsky4! Jumping in here, a lot of the "Lizzie hurt animals" gossip was no more than unsubstantiated rumors after the murders. It was more like... a friend of a friend told my friend they heard... you know how that goes. And the newspapers were content with yellow journalism to sell papers and Lizzie was the hottest thing going. If anything, her actions in life and after, in her Will, speak to her great love of animals. She donated to a charity for abandoned horses, had a great affection for her own pets, and donated generously to the Fall River Animal Rescue league. Twins, as well as many others on the forum, can def fill in the details better than I can off the top of my head! I just had to hop in to say that after my years of research I don't believe for a minute Lizzie ever harmed an animal.

[twinsrwe]

LABR, don't short change yourself; you did a superb job of telling what is known about Lizzie allegedly being cruel to animals. I agree with you, I don't think she had it in her to hurt an animal of any kind.

[LABRhush]

Thanks Twins! Me neither. And I know we both believe Lizzie did kill the elder Bordens. The two things are very different to me. I believe anyone can kill if shoved deep enough into a desperate corner. But cruelty to animals is a choice not a reaction. No disrespect to you camgarsky4! I also see exactly what you're saying and absolutely agree about sociopaths. In my opinion Lizzie was guilty... but not a sociopath. I believe there were a lot more circumstances going on in that house and 100% agree with you Twins that Emma planted the seeds for the murders. I think she was fully aware of what was going on.

[camgarsky4]

Thanks to both of you for the clarity on this. That's what I figured, but the show made quite the issue of it, so wanted to make sure.

[phineas]

There was so much anti-Irish and immigrant prejudice at that time if Lizzie has intimated suspicion of Bridget she might have helped herself. I always had a sense that she and Emma were very very careful not to do that. In my view they did not want Bridget to tell tales. Bridget leaving 92 so quickly indicates to me that she knew Lizzie was guilty. I think Bridget carved her testimony in turn so that she didn’t accuse Lizzie. She wasn’t paid off - she was terrified of a woman who committed two grisly murders with herself steps away. At that point she didn’t know what Lizzie would do.