Have you read Mary Naugle's Hatchet article this month about kleptomania?
It's titled "Light Fingered Lizzie and the Kleptomania Craze."
Whether you have, or not, do you have an opinion as to whether Lizzie really was a shoplifter?
And if so, to what degree?
Or do you think it was inflammatory rumor? If the town couldn't convict her of murder they'd get her on shoplifting rumors?
Lizzie A Shoplifter?
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Kat
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Yooper
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I think it is possible, but I can't prove it one way or the other. It is one "rumor" which has persisted for some reason. I would think it would have been disproven by now if it was false. If Andrew payed off Lizzie's indiscretions to avoid a scandal, then there was no harm done.
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DWilly
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Susan
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I voted that I think it was possible. True, nothing has ever been proven of the tales of Lizzie's shoplifting. But, I think of what was said by people that knew Lizzie like Alice Russell; the "they would like to have been cultured girls" and "do and see and have". From Alice's description it sounds as though Andrew didn't understand his girls, or women in general for that matter, and the possible need for certain things they might want. If Lizzie couldn't get Andrew to pay for these things, despite having her own money in the bank, she may have felt entitled to these trinkets and such and took them. Lizzie as poor little rich girl, growing up, surrounded by money that she can't access to live as she would have liked. 
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Kat
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If she was a kleptomaniac, and Andrew paid her bills without comment, then he was not helping her but enabling her, wasn't he?
It's like condoning bad behaviour?
That's not a good message for him to send her.
It's conflicted.
Gee, it's getting really complicated, the more I think of the repercussions.
It's like condoning bad behaviour?
That's not a good message for him to send her.
It's conflicted.
Gee, it's getting really complicated, the more I think of the repercussions.
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Yooper
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I would expect that sooner or later Lizzie would have been responsible for herself. If she was indulged to an excessive degree then she may have found it unnecessary to exhibit the accepted level of self-control. Andrew certainly would have been enabling the behavior exhibited, but perhaps that was accepted by Andrew and he never expected her to outgrow it, for whatever reason. As long as she exhibited child-like behavior, she was still a child to him.
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To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Audrey
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If Andrew was paying her shoplifting bills she may have done it as a passive aggressive way to hurt or punish him for unknown reasons-- it could have also been a control issue.
However-- once he died she no longer had this 'protection' from arrest for shoplifting -- and may have continued to shoplift. ie-- Tilden-Thurber.
I doubt that if she did her stealing out of town she was even suspected of being a thief. If she did steal those things from Tilden-Thurber they didn't catch her until someone brought one of the objects in for repair.
Her fine clothes, fur coats and ladylike demeanor gave her a certain freedom to shoplift in finer stores in NYC and Boston. She looked like she belonged there.... I wonder if she made purchases at the same time as she filled her pockets with the things she stole.
However-- once he died she no longer had this 'protection' from arrest for shoplifting -- and may have continued to shoplift. ie-- Tilden-Thurber.
I doubt that if she did her stealing out of town she was even suspected of being a thief. If she did steal those things from Tilden-Thurber they didn't catch her until someone brought one of the objects in for repair.
Her fine clothes, fur coats and ladylike demeanor gave her a certain freedom to shoplift in finer stores in NYC and Boston. She looked like she belonged there.... I wonder if she made purchases at the same time as she filled her pockets with the things she stole.
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Harry
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I remember reading somewhere about Lizzie on one of her Boston visits being trailed by police or detectives on suspicion of shoplifting.
I have looked and looked through my files but have not been able to find the item or its source.
Does anyone else remember reading that?
I have looked and looked through my files but have not been able to find the item or its source.
Does anyone else remember reading that?
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augusta
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I think it would be in Andrew's character to just pay for whatever Lizzie may have taken to keep it quiet. Shopkeepers must have sent him an itemized bill and should have kept a copy for themselves. I wish one of those copies, if they existed, would show up some day.
I agree, Kat. That would not be solving the problem. But what else could he do back then? Alienists weren't in vogue, and he didn't want her arrested for the scandal it would create. I picture him yelling at her whenever he got a bill, saying, "Now this is really the last time..."
Andrew and Abby knew she was a little strange. I think they just eventually accepted it as part of whatever was wrong with her and simply tried to keep peace between them and the stores in Fall River.
If she stole, I think she did it because she felt that she deserved to have whatever she wanted and was being denied it by her father. Later in life if it continued, I'd think it would be to make up for all the stuff she didn't get pre-Andrew's whacking. And that could be going on forever. It doesn't matter how much money a klepto has - they can well afford to purchase what they take much of the time.
I think she was a klepto. The daylight robbery of Abby's things (tho I think she was setting people up to buy her alibi later - "Well, you remember they broke into the house in broad daylight before...") was a little extreme to be just a simple break-in. She didn't have to take all those things - especially one item that meant a lot to Abby. That incident took guts, too, like it wasn't the first time she'd done something like that.
A comment by a Gifford daughter (?) told about her shoplifting, and how she would come in Gifford's Jewelry store and I believe the woman said they would have to watch Lizzie in there. I tend to believe this. She liked good jewelry (look at the pieces described in her will). The store was a reputable one.
The Tilden-Thurber incident is debatable. It's true that a warrant was made out for her, but she was never arrested - never taken to court over it. Would they have been so kind to her as to have let her pay for the paintings behind closed doors - after all that publicity on the warrant? Tho each newspaper story was a little different than the others, signs point to her being innocent on this one. Or, at least, they did not have enough evidence to go after her. It might have been one of those things where it was Lizzie's word ("I am innocent.") against the store clerk's ("I just know she took them. I did not write the sale down in the books!").
I agree, Kat. That would not be solving the problem. But what else could he do back then? Alienists weren't in vogue, and he didn't want her arrested for the scandal it would create. I picture him yelling at her whenever he got a bill, saying, "Now this is really the last time..."
Andrew and Abby knew she was a little strange. I think they just eventually accepted it as part of whatever was wrong with her and simply tried to keep peace between them and the stores in Fall River.
If she stole, I think she did it because she felt that she deserved to have whatever she wanted and was being denied it by her father. Later in life if it continued, I'd think it would be to make up for all the stuff she didn't get pre-Andrew's whacking. And that could be going on forever. It doesn't matter how much money a klepto has - they can well afford to purchase what they take much of the time.
I think she was a klepto. The daylight robbery of Abby's things (tho I think she was setting people up to buy her alibi later - "Well, you remember they broke into the house in broad daylight before...") was a little extreme to be just a simple break-in. She didn't have to take all those things - especially one item that meant a lot to Abby. That incident took guts, too, like it wasn't the first time she'd done something like that.
A comment by a Gifford daughter (?) told about her shoplifting, and how she would come in Gifford's Jewelry store and I believe the woman said they would have to watch Lizzie in there. I tend to believe this. She liked good jewelry (look at the pieces described in her will). The store was a reputable one.
The Tilden-Thurber incident is debatable. It's true that a warrant was made out for her, but she was never arrested - never taken to court over it. Would they have been so kind to her as to have let her pay for the paintings behind closed doors - after all that publicity on the warrant? Tho each newspaper story was a little different than the others, signs point to her being innocent on this one. Or, at least, they did not have enough evidence to go after her. It might have been one of those things where it was Lizzie's word ("I am innocent.") against the store clerk's ("I just know she took them. I did not write the sale down in the books!").
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bruceaddison
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Although Lizzie was never arrested in the Tilden-Thurber incident, it seems odd that a well known and respected store would sign out a warrant for the arrest of one of its customers had they not felt sure that she was the culprit. It would be entirely within keeping that a smaller store in that era would permit restitution and drop the matter.
I recently purchased a copy of Len Rebello's wonderful book (all of you would keep your copies under lock and key if you knew what they are going for at used book dealers now). If I remember, he quotes Andrew Jenning's son as saying that his father dropped Lizzie as a client in disgust when he was called upon to negotiate her out of another shop-lifting episode. In additon, Len Rebello cites the daughter of Fall River merchant who recalled that Lizzie had a reputation as a shop-lifter.
Like the murders themselves, there doesn't seem to be any proof positive that Lizzie was guilty, just a great deal of evidence pointing in that direction.
I love Victoria Lincoln's take on the whole thing. She thinks that the widely publicized Tilden Thurber incident really finished Lizzie off socially in Fall River, given that, as she says, shoplifting, while a far lesser crime than murder is, in its own strange way, less socially acceptable. As she concludes "The Borgias had family pride. They did not pick pockets".
I recently purchased a copy of Len Rebello's wonderful book (all of you would keep your copies under lock and key if you knew what they are going for at used book dealers now). If I remember, he quotes Andrew Jenning's son as saying that his father dropped Lizzie as a client in disgust when he was called upon to negotiate her out of another shop-lifting episode. In additon, Len Rebello cites the daughter of Fall River merchant who recalled that Lizzie had a reputation as a shop-lifter.
Like the murders themselves, there doesn't seem to be any proof positive that Lizzie was guilty, just a great deal of evidence pointing in that direction.
I love Victoria Lincoln's take on the whole thing. She thinks that the widely publicized Tilden Thurber incident really finished Lizzie off socially in Fall River, given that, as she says, shoplifting, while a far lesser crime than murder is, in its own strange way, less socially acceptable. As she concludes "The Borgias had family pride. They did not pick pockets".
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Kat
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http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnline/index.htm
Have you guys gone to the website at The Hatchet and voted there? Those results would be viewed by the world.
Actually, I used a misnomer: The question should really be "Was Lizzie A Kleptomaniac?"
Upon reading Mary Naugle's article, one finds the distinction. I think we do know that we are voting about a compulsive activity- not a traditional thief situation.
Any remarks on Mary's article?
Have you guys gone to the website at The Hatchet and voted there? Those results would be viewed by the world.
Actually, I used a misnomer: The question should really be "Was Lizzie A Kleptomaniac?"
Upon reading Mary Naugle's article, one finds the distinction. I think we do know that we are voting about a compulsive activity- not a traditional thief situation.
Any remarks on Mary's article?
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Yooper
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I agree that Andrew covering for Lizzie was entirely within his character. His reputation was important, he had to appear to be in control at all times. Lizzie's shoplifting would have compromised his standing. I think he was more concerned with his image than he was with doing Lizzie harm by enabling her behavior.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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RayS
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There is NO PROOF that Lizzie was guilty. If she had just been another employee there wouldn't have been any motive of inheritance.bruceaddison @ Tue May 16, 2006 3:57 pm wrote:...
Like the murders themselves, there doesn't seem to be any proof positive that Lizzie was guilty, just a great deal of evidence pointing in that direction.
In one fictional case, the police ask "who had a motive (benefit)?"
The hardest crime to solve is a serial killer, no prior connections to the victim. Or nay one that lacks clues, IMO.
This book also points out that the innocent are suspects for the rest of their lives.
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RayS
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What reports of shop-lifting before the murders? None?augusta @ Wed May 17, 2006 12:16 pm wrote:I wonder if Andrew made her pay him back. That would be just like him, too.
Psychologists can speculate that the suspicion of guilt that Lizzie lived with for the rest of her life could have affected her life and judgment.
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RayS
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Andy would have said "my money shan't pay for it". You know the quote.Audrey @ Wed May 17, 2006 9:23 pm wrote:if Lizzie was shoplifting and if Andrew was paying her 'bills' I cannot imagine he would speak of it to her.
I also have a problem believing he would trust the merchants not to tack on a little more than she allegedly took!
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Audrey
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Yes... I do know the quote... Didn't Victoria Lincoln make it up?RayS @ Thu May 18, 2006 6:11 pm wrote:Andy would have said "my money shan't pay for it". You know the quote.Audrey @ Wed May 17, 2006 9:23 pm wrote:if Lizzie was shoplifting and if Andrew was paying her 'bills' I cannot imagine he would speak of it to her.
I also have a problem believing he would trust the merchants not to tack on a little more than she allegedly took!
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Kat
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I don't know if the quote is in Lincoln, but it is in The Knowlton Papers, #HK212, where it is taken from Alice Russell's letter to Moody 3 days before trial. This is the letter where we hear what Alice says Lizzie told her Wednesday night.
In the last part:
She told me about a man that came to see her father. She heard him say I don't want to let my property for such business, and the man answered sneeringly, I shouldn't think you would care what it is let for.
She said "father was mad and ordered the man out of the house." She told me of Mrs. Borden going over to see Dr. Bowen.
Mrs. Borden said she was afraid they had been poisoned. Mrs. Borden met Mr. Borden in the entry on her way out, and told him where she was going. Lizzie said "her father did not like it and said my money shant pay for it. But she went over.
I asked her what Dr. Bowen said she replied, he laughed when Mrs. Borden told what she feared, and said it was not poison.
Mrs. Borden had told the doctor about Mr. Borden's being sick and he went over to see him. Lizzie said "the way father used Dr. Bowen - why I was so mortified. I don't know what the doctor will think I am sure."
After he had gone Mrs. Borden scolded. She said I am ashamed for you to use Dr. Bowen so. Mr. Borden said "well I don't want him coming over here Dr. Handy style." Mrs. B. said he didn't come over here Dr. Handy style. I told him you were sick and he came over to see you and I
think it is a shame you can't treat him decent. He is all the neighbors we have got and I think it is too bad."
Mr. Moody -
The foregoing is a substantially correct narative as I
remember it of the conversation which you wish me to give you.
Miss Russell
June 2, '93
(Note: "Medley matter" handwritten in lead on reverse side of letter.)
In the last part:
She told me about a man that came to see her father. She heard him say I don't want to let my property for such business, and the man answered sneeringly, I shouldn't think you would care what it is let for.
She said "father was mad and ordered the man out of the house." She told me of Mrs. Borden going over to see Dr. Bowen.
Mrs. Borden said she was afraid they had been poisoned. Mrs. Borden met Mr. Borden in the entry on her way out, and told him where she was going. Lizzie said "her father did not like it and said my money shant pay for it. But she went over.
I asked her what Dr. Bowen said she replied, he laughed when Mrs. Borden told what she feared, and said it was not poison.
Mrs. Borden had told the doctor about Mr. Borden's being sick and he went over to see him. Lizzie said "the way father used Dr. Bowen - why I was so mortified. I don't know what the doctor will think I am sure."
After he had gone Mrs. Borden scolded. She said I am ashamed for you to use Dr. Bowen so. Mr. Borden said "well I don't want him coming over here Dr. Handy style." Mrs. B. said he didn't come over here Dr. Handy style. I told him you were sick and he came over to see you and I
think it is a shame you can't treat him decent. He is all the neighbors we have got and I think it is too bad."
Mr. Moody -
The foregoing is a substantially correct narative as I
remember it of the conversation which you wish me to give you.
Miss Russell
June 2, '93
(Note: "Medley matter" handwritten in lead on reverse side of letter.)
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Allen
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Thanks for that transcription Kat. 
I began to wonder about it myself, so I went back and checked Alice Russell's testimony. I thought I remembered Alice testifying that Lizzie told her this story when she came to visit her the night before the murders. She was being asked about the content of their discussion, and is asked to restate certain portions of the conversation. Here she is testifying to what Lizzie told her.
Alice Russell testimony page 379:
Q. Please state that.
A. "I think sometimes-- I am afraid sometimes that somebody will do something do him; he is so discourteous to people. " And then she said, "Dr. Bowen came over. Mrs. Borden went over, and father didn't like it because she was going, and she told him where she was going, and he says, 'Well my money shan't pay for it.'.....
I began to wonder about it myself, so I went back and checked Alice Russell's testimony. I thought I remembered Alice testifying that Lizzie told her this story when she came to visit her the night before the murders. She was being asked about the content of their discussion, and is asked to restate certain portions of the conversation. Here she is testifying to what Lizzie told her.Alice Russell testimony page 379:
Q. Please state that.
A. "I think sometimes-- I am afraid sometimes that somebody will do something do him; he is so discourteous to people. " And then she said, "Dr. Bowen came over. Mrs. Borden went over, and father didn't like it because she was going, and she told him where she was going, and he says, 'Well my money shan't pay for it.'.....
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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snokkums
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I think she was a klepto,to. From what I understand and read, there was proof of her shoplifting and her father paying off the debt at the local department store. And Andrew did lock his door because she took from Abby and him. So, she was a kelpto.
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RayS
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Audrey
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Thank You Ray....RayS @ Fri May 19, 2006 11:05 am wrote:If a misquote removed people from this site, who would be left?Audrey @ Fri May 19, 2006 4:14 am wrote:When I am wrong... I can admit it! Thanks Kat and Allen!
Now I have egg on my face!
Its more fun when you don't have to look through a pile of books B4 replying.
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Kat
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You take such beautiful pictures, Audrey!!
And that one is very funny!
I did not mean that Lincoln didn't say it- because I didn't know. I did know that Alice said Lizzie said Andrew said that.. (whew!)
Anyway- trust your instincts (or just double check)- because I didn't think you were wrong- guess what- Lincoln Did quote that! Good for you- good memory:
Page 61-62
Mrs. Borden never gave the warmed-over fish a thought. As soon as she could get dressed in the morning, she rushed across the street (they had no telephone) to tell Dr. Bowen that she and her husband had been poisoned. Andrew was furious. As she left the house to tell the doctor God knows what, he shouted after her, "Well, my money shan't pay for it."
--A PRIVATE DISGRACE LIZZIE BORDEN BY DAYLIGHT
VICTORIA LINCOLN
1967
--You can take the egg of your face.
And that one is very funny!
I did not mean that Lincoln didn't say it- because I didn't know. I did know that Alice said Lizzie said Andrew said that.. (whew!)
Anyway- trust your instincts (or just double check)- because I didn't think you were wrong- guess what- Lincoln Did quote that! Good for you- good memory:
Page 61-62
Mrs. Borden never gave the warmed-over fish a thought. As soon as she could get dressed in the morning, she rushed across the street (they had no telephone) to tell Dr. Bowen that she and her husband had been poisoned. Andrew was furious. As she left the house to tell the doctor God knows what, he shouted after her, "Well, my money shan't pay for it."
--A PRIVATE DISGRACE LIZZIE BORDEN BY DAYLIGHT
VICTORIA LINCOLN
1967
--You can take the egg of your face.
