Andrew and tobacco

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:35 pm

One of the items taken from Andrew's body was a package of "fine cut chewing tobacco". A web site says that fine cut tobacco could also be used as snuff.

"Smokeless Tobacco: The Basics
Smokeless tobacco comes in two forms: snuff and chewing tobacco.

Snuff is finely ground tobacco that comes as dry snuff, moist snuff and fine cut. Chewing tobacco (chew) is bulkier and comes as loose leaf, plug and twist forms. The user places a chew (wad, quid) inside the cheek and chews the tobacco to mix it with saliva. The tobacco can be kept in the mouth for hours to get a continuous nicotine buzz."

Source - http://www.drdrew.com/Topics/article.asp?id=1150

For some reason I can't see Andrew chewing tobacco and occasionally spitting it out. Just doesn't seem to be his style. But an occasional pinch of it as snuff......who knows.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:15 pm

Hi Harry, Is snuff used the same way as chewing tobacco? Is it put into the mouth and not spit out? It's almost easier for me to picture Andrew with a pipe rather then either of the other two.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:02 pm

Hi shakiboo,

I've always thought of snuff for use in the nose, as in inhaling a "pinch". From what I've read at a few websites snuff is normally in a powder form. Inhaling it causes you to sneeze and thus helps clear the air passages.

This web site tells how easy it was to make your own snuff:

http://www.coffinails.com/snuff.html

Of course there is no evidence that Andrew ever used tobacco in any form but it's hard to explain why he would have a package on him.

BTW, shakiboo, welcome to the forum. I'm a little late in welcoming you.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:05 pm

what a coincidence that i was remembering this the other day.

there is -- or used to be -- a form of snuff one did put in mouth. my great grandmother (b. 1889/ d. 1977) did it. it was a common enough sight among old people back then. i don't know why i thought of it. the term was "dipping snuff." she would keep a can stuffed with tissues nearby, more or less politely hidden, and spit in it every few minutes. it was a brown powder that she placed underneath the tongue. i even got her to let me try it once--it did not agree with me, it burned, that's about all i remember about it.

my earliest childhood memories are of being around the old people, and i tried all their vices. my preference was smoking a pipe -- at 4 yrs old -- how's that? i remember one time i passed out from dabbling too much in tobacco and the whiskey bottle. (see astute quote from Lincoln posted by someone here meaning no vice no virtue!)

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:12 pm

Thanks for the welcome Harry, better late then never!!! I guess it's easier for me, I feel as though I know all of you guys, as it took me almost 2 years to read through the archives. I wanted to catch up before I joined the forum....silly me! There's no way, so I'll just have to settle for picking everyone's brains!! Now I'm reading everything else I can, this site is totally addicting and fascinating! Thanks for your help with the snuff question!

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:16 pm

Makes you wonder why Andrew would have something like that on him, wonder if it was open and had been used or if it was still new....

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:38 pm

Apparently the package of tobacco was partially used. Dr. Dolan testified to it at the preliminary hearing, page 194. He was questioned by Adams.

"Q. I see you have produced some fine cut chewing tobacco; you understood that Mr. Borden was not in the habit of using tobacco, chewing tobacco?
A. I do not know; I could not tell you.
Q. You do not know, except that there is a package of partly used fine chewing tobacco?
A. Yes Sir."

There's no mention of the package of tobacco at the trial.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:33 am

Think I may have found the very item (and possibly the brand, too) that your grandmother used, haulover - see http://www.yardsalenet.net/categories/m ... v?id=16929

My own maternal grandmother used to use the stuff (Bruton Scotch, as pictured) in just the fashion you describe, using a tissue-laden cup...whenever the need arose so to say. I never got brave enough to try that or the twisted chewing tobacco she also used - the stink was just too foul. Smoking never bothered me a whit, still doesn't. "Chew" and snuff though - another tale entirely! Yuck!

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:31 am

that's it, doug. i've never chewed and spit anything either.

what induces baseball players to chew? the concentration issue?

i can't think of any reason andrew would have it on him unless he was using it. it was probably a very common practice on streets and sidewalks.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:01 am

Not sure about the baseball issue, but it sounds good enough for government work. Could be that. I've heard though that there's a bunch of "bubble-gummers" out there.

I've got to agree about Andrew Borden - there's absolutely no reason I can think of that he might have carried fine chewing tobacco - which I'm guessing is snuff - unless he used it. Sure, you could make a "just-in-case" argument, but at least to my way of thinking that'd be a tad thin. Snuff strikes me as being slightly more personal than say a cigar, etc.

A closet dipper?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:01 am

You'd think that the doctor who autopsied Andrew would know whether he used tobacco or not.

Just look in his mouth.
Do you suppose his mouth was obliterated?

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:19 am

too hard to say from the scans we have, at least from what I can see here.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:06 am

Certainly using it as snuff would be far more discreet than smoking or chewing it.

If the package had not been opened then perhaps it might have been purchased for someone else, say Morse. That it was open would seem to indicate he may have used it in some form.

I have never read of any ashtrays in the house or spittoons for that matter.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:06 am

Did Andrew actually chew or use tobacco? He seems to cheap to buy anything like that or anything that he might enjoy.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:41 pm

I wonder if we're not overplaying the cheap card here? There's really little evidence to suggest that Andrew Borden was cheap at all. Frugal yes - a wee bit stiff perhaps in his business dealings for our modern tastes, yes indeed. But he was not unlike many others of the gilded age in these respects.

Hiram Harrington implied that he was - but Hiram didn't have much use for Andrew Borden anyway it seems.

The tobacco question is open at best, but it's not unreasonable to think that if he partook, the few pennies it likely cost wouldn't necessarily have been out of character - luxurious spending, that is. (This isn't a grand tour of Europe we're speaking of, after all!)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:43 pm

Dr. Phil had a show Friday on how to increase your brain acuity and chewing gum was one of the tips.
Also, maybe nicotine was a brain stimulant as well?
Maybe Andrew did these things to keep up in the business world- keep his mind sharp, so to speak. 70 was kind of old back then.
It would be his drug, basically, right?

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:09 pm

Also, maybe nicotine was a brain stimulant as well?

Entirely possible, but nicotine is something of a chameleon, as it has stimulating as well as mild sedative effects. At http://tobaccodocuments.org/product_des ... -9771.html there's some explanation of this. (Beware: Gobbledygook Ahead! Hip-boots might be helpful.)

A drug of choice? Certainly. It remains that even today.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:30 am

What was thought to be a *string* of blood on the doorframe of the dining room, turned out to be something yellowy- like soup or tobacco. Maybe it was spit?

If the question had not been prefaced with "You understood that Mr. Borden was not in the habit..." etc. it would seem simple.
Why was the question prefaced this way?

Anyway, maybe the small package Andrew had when he came home was this tobacco? We never knew if he indulged and we never knew what the package was...