BORDEN --CSI

Steveads2004 · Post by **Steveads2004** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:25 pm

I have invented a time portal generator and can transport YOU along with 15 security police and Gus Grissom's CSI team to the Borden side yard at the instant Lizzie calls over to Mrs. Churchill. YOU are the commaning officer in charge of the team Please give a step by step DETAILED account of your actions. Keep in mind, EVERYTHING ELSE REMAINS EXACTLY THE SAME as it was on the morning of the murders. This should be fun and informative!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:49 pm

What a great premise for detective work par excellence! First thing I would do upon arrival at the scene is escort Miss Lizzie from that screen door and send her to cool her heels with Addie in the driveway-, go in and make sure the victim was truly dead and beyond medical help, and then seal the house, put up yellow crime scene tape around the entire lot. While I had had Lizzie out in the bright sun, I would have a good look at every visible inch of her, and have her patted down and frisked by a lady assistant. Second, post a cop on each side of the house, close off the street, stop the coach from leaving and any horse and team from Hall's, and post a cop at the barn door. Nothing would get in. Third thing would be to retain any persons on the street for questioning and quickly dispatch several officers to Third Street to search Crowe's Yard, Chagnon's yard and that little orchard of trees just behind the house- every blade and branch.

Next step would be to assign an officer to take immediate statements from Lizzie and Addie, then Bridget and John and others as they arrive while the inside investigative team goes in to collect evidence, search and photograph every square inch from cellar to attic, grounds and barn (and hopefully someone would find some pear cores). The evidence collecting team would be noting the location of all items, photographing the original position before placing in sealed bags for analysis later.
After the coroner had arrived and completed the examination of the bodies, and the photographer was finished and the house search was done, -I would ask for the clothing worn by Lizzie and Bridget be removed and treated as evidence materials. I expect someone could have found something for Lizzie to wear in the bustling household of Addie's! Naturally Lizzie and Bridget would be under surveillance the whole time. Then the bodies would go to the city morgue for autopsy until the funeral, allowing no access to them by family members, and the family would be put up elsewhere until there was nothing more to be gained from a minute search of the house and grounds. -Okay, there's a start!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:51 am

I would do all that too but I also would (in the *firstly* category) search the house with gun drawn and backup to see if there were any other victims, alive or dead, or any possible perp.
I would also assign someone to videotape the scene and the premises and especially the gathering crowd.

That's a good start, Shelley!
You guys should sell crime scene tape at the barn gift shop.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:42 am

1. Seal off the property, no one comes in and no one comes out.

2. Seal off the house, no one comes in except the investigators and no one comes out.

3. Check the victims for signs of life.

4. Kill the fire in the stove.

5. Keep Lizzie and Bridget in seperate rooms while seaching the house and barn for a killer.

6. Go over both Lizzie and Bridget with a magnifying glass for any signs of blood. Frisk both women for weapons and bloody rolled-up clothes.

7. Search the carpets for signs of blood drops and trails.

8. Photograph and video tape every square inch of the house, barn and yard before anything is moved.

9. Photograph each body at least a dozen shots each with clear up-close in focus photos.

10. Have a Coroner check the bodies for time of death.

11. Examine and photograph the blood splatter patterns.

12. Question Lizzie and Bridget seperately on camera about their where-abouts.

13. Check for: pear cores (make a casting of bite marks to match to Lizzie's teeth), footprints in the barn, strands of hay on the carpets, blood in the window washing water, bloody clothes, bloody cloths in the loo, Lizzie's closet and room, Bridget's closet and room, slop jars, hatchets and meat cleavers, the neigbor's yards for hatchets, the pear trees for hatchets hidden in the branches, the wood pile, any freshly dug soil, gopher holes, lose wood trim that may indicate a hiding place for a weapon, the chimney's smoke shelf(s), each and every piece of furniture inside and out for a hidden weapon, the attic, basement, Andrew's room, closets, etc., etc. I would seach every square inch of that property, inside and out. I would have everything photographed and video taped as I go.

14. Take Lizzie and Bridget's clothes that they were wearing at the time of the killing as evidence. Have them well photographed and documented.

15. Check Lizzie's, Bridget's and Emma's clothes with that Illuminal stuff for hidden blood stains. Check the house with it also for blood trails. Go through all of Emma's possesions, clothes and suit cases for blood, notes, hatchets, etc.

16. Question Uncle John and go through his personal stuff for evidence. Question everyone who saw him that day.

17. Take all the remains in the stove as evidence.

18. Make an examination of both bodies and determine the type of weapon(s) used and what caused each wound including the facial wounds on Abby. Scrape their finger nails for blood and flesh

19. Check with all hardware stores, and any other stores that sells hatchets, in Fall River and Fair Haven for any information on who sold hatchets and to whom. Show photos of Emma, Bridget, Lizzie and Uncle John.

These are just for starters.

-1bigsteve (o:

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:41 am

After securing the scene and sending for the proper authorities (back up, medical services, etc.) I'd put up the crime scene tape and place officers at each entrance. Evidence markers would be placed by all items that seemed relevant to the crime. Wearing gloves to keep from contaiminating any evidence I'd proceed to work the scene. Detailed measurements of each room would be taken so that after the scene is photographed, and before any of the objects are disturbed, a crime scene sketch could be generated to more accurately depict the objects and their placement. I'd carefully record each item and it's exact measurements/location in the legend of the sketch. (Photography isn't the most reliable source for spacial relationships.) After the scene is thoroughly sketched detailed notes would be taken to further document the findings and then the scene would be videotaped. I'd begin working the relevant elements of the scene that are out of doors first since weather/lighting conditions can be unpredictable. After the scene has been thoroughly recorded each item of evidence would be collected, placed in it's proper container, marked accordingly, and handled following the proper chain of custody. I'd begin dusting for fingerprints at the most likely entry point to the crime scene, and from there travel the route of the scene. The bodies would not be disturbed/moved in any way until the coroner arrived and formally pronounced the victims deceased. The clothing of the victims would be obtained from the coroner after the autopsy to be analyzed. The findings of the coroner would be most important as they most often determine what direction the investigation should take. Fingerprints/blood samples would be obtained from each victim and surviving member of the household so they can be used as a standard of comparison against those found at the scene, and possibly eliminate them as belonging to a suspect. I'd make sure to thoroughly vaccuum each room and send the bags collected to be analyzed since the floor area of the crime scene usually produces the most evidence. Interviews would be conducted of each member of the household, all witnesses who arrived at the scene, and those who are most likely to have knowledge of the events that took place leading up to the crime. Their statements would be recorded in as much detail as possible to ensure their accuracy and integrity for later use at trial.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:32 pm

You're missing the most important part! Make sure that the lead investigator has as sexy a voice as David Caruso.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:43 pm

And of course we would want to keep the press at bay, and keep back a few secrets of the crime scene so that fame-seeking nutcases who claim to have done the deed could be weeded out. Oh, and have a good look in the family medicine chest and rubbish barrels inside and out to check for tainted food and medicines.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:56 pm

Amazing how many experts there are in hindsight? With the knowledge gained from hundreds of other cases?
This is not meant as any kind of criticism.
I wonder what was done in the latest murder in your city?

"Everybody wants to get into the act" said one popular entertainer from decades ago. (I remember the name, but don't want to show my age.)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:00 pm

Me? I'm calling Adrian Monk.

Well, as long as he brings Natalie with him.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:22 pm

I bet Adrian would have run right out to count the pear cores and sweep up the dust on the hayloft floor (after recording every footprint and cobweb first!) I can see his eye bulge at that nasty pail of soaking unmentionables in the cellar too and needing a dozen "wipes" from Natalie's purse.

I wonder what Sherlock Holmes would have done? I picture him and Watson, prone under the pear trees looking for footprints and traces of cigar ash!

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:25 pm

In addition to all of the above.
I would want to see how well the windows had been washed. The window washing on the day of the murder still bothers me. Cant quite put my finger on what it is though.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:43 pm

Amazing how many experts there are in hindsight? With the knowledge gained from hundreds of other cases?
This is not meant as any kind of criticism.
I wonder what was done in the latest murder in your city?

"Everybody wants to get into the act" said one popular entertainer from decades ago. (I remember the name, but don't want to show my age.)

No, I don't see how ANYONE could have taken that as a slap.

It may have been mentioned, but I would separate Lizzie and Bridget immediately, with a cop apiece, to make sure they didn't speak to one another or anyone but the police about the crimes. And, oh yeah, photos, photos, photos - of Lizzie and Bridget BEFORE they were compelled to change clothing, under the watchful eye of a matron.

And HANDS OFF the bodies, everybody!

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:25 pm

There would have to be some exchange too between the officer in charge and a junior along the lines of “See that man there? That’s Doctor Bowen. He’s been wandering around here the last while not in all that good a shape really. Consider him your shadow until I tell you differently. You’re to keep him occupied somehow – just how is your business at the moment. It makes no difference to me. But you will get him out of this house, or at least keep him within your sight until I tell you otherwise, got it? He touches nothing else in this house! I don’t care – if he sneezes, lend him your handkerchief, get the idea? Good. Remember that, or your badge will be the toast on tomorrow’s breakfast plate! You want a guarantee, I think that can be arranged.

Now let's get to work."

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:00 pm

I'm with you on that Doug- Bowen was far too much in the picture-and I can't say much for a doctor who looked at Abby onceover and thought she had had a heart attack or fainted dead away! Something always very fishy about Bowen in my mind.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:09 pm

I wonder what Sherlock Holmes would have done? I picture him and Watson, prone under the pear trees looking for footprints and traces of cigar ash!

Oh good grief - I see Watson there, but it's Nigel Bruce's Watson!

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:20 pm

I agree completely about Bowen, Shelley. Not that there's anything necessarily sinister in his behavior of the 4th - I'd put it down as post-traumatic shock myself, but that's just me. But it does seem that he got away with quite a bit in the house merely by virtue of his respected position. The police too are complicit though, perhaps for the same reason. Bowen did whatever he did and got away with it - but the police allowed him to do whatever.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:33 pm

Did Dr. Bowen remain the sister's Dr. after the trial? It seems he's everywhere and then all of a sudden, he's nowhere.......

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:17 pm

I recall reading something about Bowen driving Lizzie to church once when all the family was away-and sitting with her- caused a bit of a flap. I think it was in the newspaper coverage after the murder. Hmm- well, he was quick on the scene. he was in the stove thowing things in to burn, upstairs with Lizzie in her room endless minutes, supportive of her when she was on the fainting couch and not up to having her room searched, and in the house the day before the murder. I am sure he was not searched as he came and went in the house and off to telegram-nor was his doctor bag. So, one could make something of all of this.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:38 pm

from The Witness Statements , page 21, the notes of Harrington and Doherty.

Mrs. Jane Grey, No. 215 Second Street. "Dr. Bowen's character is at least suspicious. Four years ago, while the Borden family were summering over the river on the farm, Lizzie remained at home. One Sunday evening during this time, she and Dr. Bowen came to church together, and sat in the Borden seat. I myself saw them this evening. At the time, and since, there was much comment on this act. Some remarked how courageous she was to remain in the house alone; but others replied in a knowing way, perhaps she has very acceptable company.

About the robbery, I think Mrs. Fish, or her daughter in law of Hartford knows more or less about it, if they wish to tell.

(Harrington & Doherty)

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:02 am

Doug, I loved, loved, loved your police procedural dialogue! And Allen, if you quote from one of the finest horror/comedies ever made, you've scored points in MY book.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:29 pm

Glad you enjoyed that Bob. A little ham, a lot of cheese, and at least half a grain of good common sense do wonders at times.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:50 pm

Doesn't it seem strange to anyone that once Lizzie is formaly accused Dr. Bowen is not around anymore?? and when she is aquitted, you don't hear of him being their Dr. anymore either....

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:43 pm

I've always found this quite curious. It is found in The Witness Statements on page 19. It was a statement taken on September 25, 1892 and seems to come from the notes of Harrington and Doherty.

Dr. Bowen stopped me on the street, and was very anxious to know what Mr. Knowlton meant when he referred to having found another agent of death. He was very nervous when talking of this I told him I did not recollect of any such statement in his plea.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:19 pm

If we were writing a script for Hitchcock, Bowen would be in love with Lizzie, helping her on the sly, with hopes of sharing her inheritance. Phebe was a shrew and he planned to do a Crippen on her!

After all, he saw Abby the morning of the 3rd, and when she was so worried about poison, he went back later that day, maybe hoping to catch Lizzie and warn her. Maybe he did get to send her a warning somehow. Say Mrs. Churchill saw a secret look between Lizzie and Bowen, or an embrace when they thought they were alone! Anyway- it makes a great script- older man- younger gal scenario.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:32 pm

Well, now if this is Hitchcock we're talking about, the last scene before the moralizing bump-out would have to be a shot of Seabury Bowen lying dead and cold near the front steps of No. 92, a hatchet firmly (and very messily) planted at the base of the skull. His hands, stiff with rigor, are outstretched as if reaching for something, but the right remains firmly clasped to his medical bag. The left, curiously, is clutched about his coin-purse, out from which peeps a small vial... Upon the slight breeze blowing from front to back is the scent of pears. The scent seems to mix just above the deceased with an odor creeping from the coin-purse, the result being not unpleasant to the casually-sniffing passerby: One of pears and almonds.

Was Phoebe Bowen a jealous type?

We'll be right back after this word from Bullova. When time's on the march, be sure it's a Bullova in your boot - or in your pocket, on your wrist. Buy Bullova, timepiece for the discerning man!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:50 pm

Bob Gutowski @ Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:43 pm wrote:
Amazing how many experts there are in hindsight? With the knowledge gained from hundreds of other cases?
This is not meant as any kind of criticism.
I wonder what was done in the latest murder in your city?

"Everybody wants to get into the act" said one popular entertainer from decades ago. (I remember the name, but don't want to show my age.)
No, I don't see how ANYONE could have taken that as a slap.

It may have been mentioned, but I would separate Lizzie and Bridget immediately, with a cop apiece, to make sure they didn't speak to one another or anyone but the police about the crimes. And, oh yeah, photos, photos, photos - of Lizzie and Bridget BEFORE they were compelled to change clothing, under the watchful eye of a matron.

And HANDS OFF the bodies, everybody!

Could it be that the police did just that? Separately question Lizzie and Bridget? There must have been some mention in the Trial Transcript?

My point is that NONE of the members of this board have experience as a police detective, or even a private detective. Remember that writers make it all look so easy.
Its like watching a game on TV: the pitcher throws a ball, the batter hits it out to left field. Looks so easy? Can YOU do it? (I know how I would answer this question.)

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:55 pm

doug65oh @ Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:20 pm wrote:I agree completely about Bowen, Shelley. Not that there's anything necessarily sinister in his behavior of the 4th - I'd put it down as post-traumatic shock myself, but that's just me. But it does seem that he got away with quite a bit in the house merely by virtue of his respected position. The police too are complicit though, perhaps for the same reason. Bowen did whatever he did and got away with it - but the police allowed him to do whatever.

Disagree completely with this opinion from someone who wasn't there and was never a member of the police or the medical profession.
In the past there was a close relationship between doctors (and reporters) and the police. There is a mention of this in the Black Dahlia Avenger, a symbiotic relationship. Each passed on tips to the others. Not anymore?

It seem perfectly natural for a doctor who lived across the street and treated the Bordens to be called - if only for Lizzie. Or do you know a reason why Lizzie shouldn't get needed medical attention?

Why is Dr. Bowen a suspect? Wasn't he away visiting a client?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:56 pm

Shelley @ Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:17 pm wrote:I recall reading something about Bowen driving Lizzie to church once when all the family was away-and sitting with her- caused a bit of a flap. I think it was in the newspaper coverage after the murder. Hmm- well, he was quick on the scene. he was in the stove thowing things in to burn, upstairs with Lizzie in her room endless minutes, supportive of her when she was on the fainting couch and not up to having her room searched, and in the house the day before the murder. I am sure he was not searched as he came and went in the house and off to telegram-nor was his doctor bag. So, one could make something of all of this.

Did you see any blood spatter on the trusted Dr. Bowen? I didn't.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:58 pm

Bob Gutowski @ Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:02 am wrote:Doug, I loved, loved, loved your police procedural dialogue! And Allen, if you quote from one of the finest horror/comedies ever made, you've scored points in MY book.

Oh, great. Now we'll get "Abbot and Costello Meet the Bordens" next?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:38 pm

Some things are just not even worth responding to....

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:38 pm

I liked the comments that one would put out any fires in the stove right away- and the other good one was to search outside pretty much first because of the elements and darkness coming eventually. I hadn't thought of those.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:46 pm

Exactly, particularly that fat wad (or rolll or bundle) mentioned in the Witness Statements.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:10 pm

Gee, four snooty little posts in a row! It's tempting to think there's a sense of humor behind them, but I think not.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:37 pm

Sounds like an old, bitter woman, or a parrot, or a record that skips and says the same line over and over.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:16 am

ignore button...ignore button...ignore button.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:14 am

Actually there was a somewhat decent theory that Dr. Bowen *Did It*, in relation to all the others.
The motive was a stumbling block.

Rebello, Lizzie Borden Past & Present, 1999, pg. 136-7:

"Richard Powers' Theory - Dr. Bowen Did It"

Powers, Richard, "Death of a Massachusetts Trojan," Washington, D.C., Chief of Police, vol. iv, no. 4, July / August, 1989: 34-45.

"Maryland Writer Says Doctor Killed Bordens," Fall River Herald News, August 5, 1989: 2.

Richard Powers of Maryland, a retired state prison guard and Maryland historian, posed the theory in the July / August issue of Chief of Police Magazine that Dr. Seabury Bowen, the doctor who lived across the street from the Bordens, killed Andrew and Abby Borden and removed the murder weapon from the scene in his doctor's bag. Powers suggested there were ill feelings between the doctor and the Bordens. "A conspiracy among the city's physicians dominated the hierarchy to kill the old-fashioned, penny-pinching bank president who stood in the way of progress."

"New Theory Points Finger at Doctor in Lizzie Borden Ax Murders," Boston Globe, August 27, 1989: 33.
"Latest Theory on Borden Murders: The Doctor Dunnit," Fall River Herald News, August 30: 1989.

Bernard Sullivan's comments on the latest theory published in the Chief of Police Magazine, (July / August). The doctor did it - possibly! The motive is far-fetched."

--The Bernie Sullivan piece is a pretty good analysis of the Power's theory.