Manchester murder

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:40 pm

Something from another thread made me think about the Manchester murder. Is anyone well versed on that crime? What I would like to know is how strong the evidence was in being able to convict the handyman.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:58 pm

Correiro eventually confessed. His story was that he wanted to rob the Manchester house and Bertha caught him in the act. They struggled and Correiro killed her with an axe.

It started out as a robbery with the killer taking some coins, her purse and watch. One of the coins was unique in that it had a hole in it. His shoes had gotten blood on them and he attempted to purchase a new pair and used the unique coin. That led the police to him. The police would later find the bloody shoes and confront him with them.

After his confession Correiro led the police to where he hid her bloody purse and watch.

That's the Readers Digest version of the case.

If I am recalling some of this wrong, Diana and Kat, can set me straight. I bow to their knowledge as its been a while since I read up on it.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:07 pm

Well then, that would certainly leave out Billy Borden, as some theorists might suggest, wouldn't it?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:17 pm

Angel, I won't touch that one with a ten foot pole.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:25 pm

Can't say I blame you.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:26 pm

Oh Harry...just use a secret visitor...that should solve everything !

Tracy...

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:57 pm

Yeah, and throw in someone's memoirs, and Bingo - case solved!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:08 pm

I have never heard of a manchestor murder. Was something like a cooycat kind of thing?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:25 pm

Snokkums, on May 31, 1893, in Fall River, 22 year old Bertha Manchester was slain with an axe. I believe some 23 blows. This was about a week before Lizzie's trial began.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:41 pm

Thanks Harry for the information. Did anyone think that the same person that did that crime did the Borden murder? Or didn't they find any connection?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:51 pm

Snok, you probably just forgot you knew about the Manchester murder. Here are 3 threads where that murder has been discussed; one started by you, one by harry, and one by Melissa. Hopefully these will help.

viewtopic.php?t=878&highlight=manchester

viewtopic.php?t=1228&highlight=manchester

viewtopic.php?t=1078&highlight=manchester

TRacy...

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:44 pm

Hi again, I'm the newbie that asked about the book by Arnold Brown. I ordered it and should get it soon. I just started a book by David Rehak called Did Lizzie Borden Axe For It? Copyright date is 2005. Does anyone have any thoughts about this especially concerning accuracy? I've never heard of this writer before. Thanks

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:45 pm

Hi again, I'm the newbie that asked about the book by Arnold Brown. I ordered it and should get it soon. I just started a book by David Rehak called Did Lizzie Borden Axe For It? Copyright date is 2005. Does anyone have any thoughts about this especially concerning accuracy? I've never heard of this writer before. Thanks

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:34 pm

Nadzieja @ Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:45 pm wrote:Hi again, I'm the newbie that asked about the book by Arnold Brown. I ordered it and should get it soon. I just started a book by David Rehak called Did Lizzie Borden Axe For It? Copyright date is 2005. Does anyone have any thoughts about this especially concerning accuracy? I've never heard of this writer before. Thanks

Nadzieja, IMO the book is a complete waste of money. I too had high hopes upon ordering the tome, but since I received and read the item, I found it to be terrible - poorly written, edited, and fact checked, and overall failing to contribute much of anything worthwhile to the body of work which already exists on the Borden murders. I wish I'd known then what I know now, I never would have bought it. Sorry to be so negative. Again, it's just my opinion.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:14 pm

Here's another link to a Manchester murder discussion:

viewtopic.php?t=1886&highlight=deaths+bloody+trail

hmmm. It seems that the search criteria we use shows up in the Forum URL?

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:54 pm

Good Lord! Where on earth has my mind been that I forgot all that? That was very good info. Thanks, Kat

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:09 pm

I think it's cool it came up again! Thanks for bringing it up!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:12 pm

We ought to collect it all and put it in one place!

I'm not sure if that would be beneficial to anyone?

Dr_OBoogie · Post by **Dr_OBoogie** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:17 pm

snokkums @ Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:41 pm wrote:Thanks Harry for the information. Did anyone think that the same person that did that crime did the Borden murder? Or didn't they find any connection?

Andrew Jennings said after the Manchester murder something to the effect of, "I suppose they're going to say Lizzie Borden did this too." Half in jest I'm sure, but considering the rarity of ax murders in Fall River, I'm sure many people thought that the Bordens' killer was still on the loose.

While the crimes were superficially similar, there were differences. First, property was stolen from the Manchester farm. None - that we know of - was stolen from the Borden house. Second, it appeared that Manchester had put up a mighty fight resisting her attacker. In the Borden case, both Andrew and Abby seemed to have been victims of a sneak attack.

Third, and most importantly, Manchester's killer wasn't even in the United States at the time of the Borden murder. He was still in the Azores. My question is, did the Borden jury know this?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:39 pm

Those are good points.
Please see Diana's comments in these links given, above.

She wrote a Hatchet article called "Exploding the Myth: The Manchester Connection." April/May 2004, Vol. 1, Issue 2, pg. 50. She concentrates on the timing of the jury being impaneled in the Borden case and the newspaper coverage of the Bertha killer being named, sought and apprehended. (He turned himself in).

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:52 pm

theebmonique @ Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:26 pm wrote:Oh Harry...just use a secret visitor...that should solve everything !

Tracy...

Don't you understand that Correiro was a secret visitor?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:56 pm

Kat @ Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:39 pm wrote:Those are good points.
Please see Diana's comments in these links given, above.

She wrote a Hatchet article called "Exploding the Myth: The Manchester Connection." April/May 2004, Vol. 1, Issue 2, pg. 50. She concentrates on the timing of the jury being impaneled in the Borden case and the newspaper coverage of the Bertha killer being named, sought and apprehended. (He turned himself in).

I haven't read that article so I can't comment on it. Neither did Arnold Brown. Brown speculated that maybe the murder was committed to present an alibi for Lizzie. Was its occurrence then just a coincidence that raised reasonable doubts as to Lizzie's guilty?

I know of examples from True Crime where another crime was committed to provide reasonable doubt for a person on trial. But there can be copy-cat crimes. Or prisoners who confess to crimes they didn't commit?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:59 pm

"I get paid for seeing that my clients have every break the law allows. I have knowingly defended a number of guilty men. But the guilty never escape unscathed. My fees are sufficient punishment for anyone."
F. Lee Bailey

Does anyone know the current rate of unsolved murders nowadays?
Those where there is even no suspect.

I beleive that Clarence Darrow would fight like hell for his innocent clients. But if they were guilty he would make a deal.
More cost-effective that way.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:01 pm

Harry @ Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:25 pm wrote:Snokkums, on May 31, 1893, in Fall River, 22 year old Bertha Manchester was slain with an axe. I believe some 23 blows. This was about a week before Lizzie's trial began.

Did Dr. Dolan say Bertha was murdered "just like Abby"? The same wounds, etc. One author said this.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:08 am

I think Bertha was killed on the 30th.
I didn't read about the same wounds "just like Abby."
Who wrote that?

diana · Post by **diana** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:06 pm

Yes, Kat -- Bertha Manchester was murdered on Memorial Day, May 30th, 1893 although Sullivan, Spiering, Brown, Hoffman, and Hixon all give the date incorrectly as May 31.

The May 31st 1893 editions, The NY Times, The Washington Post and The Chicago Daily Tribune show a Fall River dateline of May 30 when reporting the murder -- Rebello cites an article from the May 31st 1893 Fall River Evening News about the Manchester murder with a sub-heading of "The Time, Early Forenoon on Memorial Day" -- and the Wednesday, May 31, 1893 Evening Standard in New Bedford says the murder occurred the previous day.

I think confusion arose because newspaper coverage of the crime did not appear until the 31st (perhaps newspapers did not publish on the holiday?) and, as we've seen so many times in the Borden case, an error was just picked up and repeated by authors using other authors as reference works.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:31 pm

Thanks Diana! Have you heard about this "just like Abby" thing?

diana · Post by **diana** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:33 pm

Brown has Dolan saying “Bertha Manchester was struck about the head and shoulders in the same locations and the same number of times as Abby Borden”. (p.237)

Spiering says Charles J. Holmes published an article in the Fall River News saying that “The savage wounds on Bertha Manchester’s skull were in precisely the same locations as the wounds on Abby Borden’s skull”. (p. 107)

Sullivan also says the press reported that “the wounds on Bertha Manchester’s skull were in almost the precise location and numbers as the wounds on Abby Borden’s skull.” (p. 201+)

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:21 pm

I've been doing some reading of your forum about the Manchester murder. I'm curious to know seeing that this was not something that happend often

back in that time period, about the public. Were they afraid or starting to panic a little because of this murder. Like when the Boston Strangler was active people were really scared. Another question I had was if the jury on the
Borden case was sequestered during the trial. I bet you can tell I haven't read all the books yet, but I thought I'd throw out the question anyways.

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:50 am

The jury was sequestered. Wanted to double check, but they were aware of the Manchester murder but were sequestered before the killer had been found

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:57 pm

diana @ Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:33 pm wrote:Brown has Dolan saying “Bertha Manchester was struck about the head and shoulders in the same locations and the same number of times as Abby Borden”. (p.237)

Spiering says Charles J. Holmes published an article in the Fall River News saying that “The savage wounds on Bertha Manchester’s skull were in precisely the same locations as the wounds on Abby Borden’s skull”. (p. 107)

Sullivan also says the press reported that “the wounds on Bertha Manchester’s skull were in almost the precise location and numbers as the wounds on Abby Borden’s skull.” (p. 201+)

Those who copy from the same sources should have the same results.

What did the autopsy say, and who compared it to Abby's wounds as per court trial?

diana · Post by **diana** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:28 pm

[quote="RayS @ Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:57 pm" Those who copy from the same sources should have the same results.]

I agree. I think both Spiering (1984) and Brown (1991) may have copied portions from Sullivan (1974) which would explain why the date of the murder is incorrect in all three books.

Spiering claims his source for the information about the wounds was an article in the press by Lizzie's close friend, Charles J. Holmes.

But none of the these authors suggest in their bibliographies or end notes that they were privy to either the Manchester autopsy report or the Manchester trial transcript.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:55 am

De Mello did not officially go to trial. They started a trial (I think a preliminary) after something like a year held in jail, and very shortly into the proceeding he pleaded guilty. So there are not transcripts.

Dr. Dolan took Bertha's head, like he did Abbie and Andrew's, and this very much upset her father. It has been my impression that the taking of her head for evidence was what these authors were (mistakenly) referring to when they said *like Abby.*

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:38 am

My use of the 30th as the murder date was strictly an error on my part. I did not consult my files but knew it was at the end of May and misspoke. It was the 31st.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:39 pm

Diana just rattled my cloudy brain and got me to look at it more closely. Geesh, looks like I was right the first time. The Evening Standard says it was Tuesday, the 30th, which in 1893 was Memorial Day.

There is a comment in the Evening Standard about many of the police in the Manchester neighborhood being in town to view the parade.

The calendar I use also shows the 30th in red indicating that was the day it was observed.

BTW, this is a great calendar site. Just change the year and voila!

http://tinyurl.com/y6b74n

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:12 pm

Harry @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:38 am wrote:My use of the 30th as the murder date was strictly an error on my part. I did not consult my files but knew it was at the end of May and misspoke. It was the 31st.

ERRARE HUMANUM EST.

It just goes to show that we should be tolerant of other's opinions, since most here do try to be accurate.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:13 pm

It just goes to show that we should be tolerant of other's opinions, since most here do try to be accurate.

In any event, this is not germane to the Borden Murders.
Note the despcription of the wounds. Given the size of a human head, most multiple whacks will lie close together, "almost" like on Abby's head (by which he means struck in the back).
Andy was whacked on his front left face.

If I'm wrong, please post a correction.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:46 pm

A mistake about a date (which was not a mistake after all if you bothered to read all the messages) doesn't compare with your errors of FACT in many messages.

And tell me, when have you ever been tolerant?

Looks like I'm going to have to put you back on ignore again. Same old BS. Click!

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:58 pm

To err is human, but to continually err is blatant stupidity.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:35 am

I knew Harry knew- and he did say he had not trotted out his newspapers when he replied. He (for a change) said Diana and I should do it. Which we did.
Harry has even been to Bertha's grave, and not many can say that!

dasdeeboot · Post by **dasdeeboot** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:07 pm

are there any crimescene photos of this too?