The infamous note

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:40 am

I just had a thought. What if there was indeed a note, but it was left by Andrew for Abby to meet him at the bank regarding the will or something, and Lizzie inadvertently came across it somewhere in the house either before or after Abby got it? Abby might have even thrown it in the stove to be burned, but Lizzie saw it there before it was. That could have thrown Lizzie into a frenzy when she realized what was afoot, so she went upstairs before Abby was ready to leave and stopped her. Then she waited for her daddy to come home so she could take care of his betraying butt too. When Andrew came home he asked where Abby was because she never showed up. Lizzie pretended innocently that Abby had gone out. Andrew had to play it low key in front of Lizzie, so he just sat down to wait for Abby to come back. Just speculation, but always a possibility.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:17 pm

I'm trying to imagine myself as Andrew for a moment. I'll be damned if I'll tiptoe around some whining, snot-nosed 32-year-old! I'll do exactly as I please with what belongs to me, and if she doesn't like it, she can leave!

Maybe Lizzie had everyone thinking that she was someone they needed to answer to, but I wonder if Andrew accepted that.

Andrew gave the Ferry Street house to Emma and Lizzie when the whining reached a frenzied pitch (from Andrew's perspective). I can't think of a more appropriate gift for two daughters who thought their present living conditions were intolerable than a reminder of what their living conditions had been.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:49 pm

Yooper @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:17 pm wrote:I'm trying to imagine myself as Andrew for a moment. I'll be damned if I'll tiptoe around some whining, snot-nosed 32-year-old! I'll do exactly as I please with what belongs to me, and if she doesn't like it, she can leave!

Maybe Lizzie had everyone thinking that she was someone they needed to answer to, but I wonder if Andrew accepted that.

Andrew gave the Ferry Street house to Emma and Lizzie when the whining reached a frenzied pitch (from Andrew's perspective). I can't think of a more appropriate gift for two daughters who thought their present living conditions were intolerable than a reminder of what their living conditions had been.

Ha ha ha. Yes, Andy gave the old Ferry St house to Emma & Lizzie, but they complained about that as well. Remind you of some kids today? They complain when they don't have something, then complain because its not like the one their friends have. (Your results may vary.)

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:18 pm

True, Ray..but these were grown women...not teenagers. Instead of sponging off of Andrew and Abby, they should have either found a husband and had a family of their own, or had some meaningful employment...maybe then they would not have had time to worry about what Andrew was doing with his own property that they felt "entitled" to. In my opinion, they were not "entitled" to anything. If anyone was, it was Abby, who was Andrew's WIFE.

It doesn't even seem as if they did anything to find a husband, if that was what was needed to change their living situation. They seemed to be content to sit back and be supported ... at the same time it seems their friends were spinsters who WERE gainfully employed. I just can't figure out why they didn't feel any motivation to do something with their lives.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:12 am

I call that Ferry St. house the house that wouldn't go away. Lizzie and Emma probably thought they were through with it when they sold it back to their father and pocketed a neat $5000 (more than $100,000 in todays dollars).

But they got it right back when they inherited Andrew's assets. Rebello, page 28, shows the date for the inheritance as 1892-1895. I don't know why that would take so long. It was during the "girls" ownership in December 1893 that the tragic death of Joseph Hurd occurred in the attic.

In any case it was sold in July 1896 and off their hands.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:32 am

If Lizzie had made the note up, I wonder why she didn't explain its non-existence by suggesting that Abby had thrown it in the stove and burned it? She explained away so many other "details", I wonder why she didn't come up with that obvious solution.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:28 am

stuartwsa @ Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:32 am wrote:If Lizzie had made the note up, I wonder why she didn't explain its non-existence by suggesting that Abby had thrown it in the stove and burned it? She explained away so many other "details", I wonder why she didn't come up with that obvious solution.

Lizzie was a bit vague in her knowledge about the note, I agree. Her testimony at the Inquest has her wording the exchange with Abby as "she said she had a note from somebody" which seems rather awkward if it is a direct quote from Abby. "Mrs. (Whitehead) is ill, she sent a note" seems a bit more natural. The fact that Abby didn't mention a name doesn't quite fit. If Abby was quoted correctly, it tends to support Angel's idea about Abby meeting Andrew somewhere, especially if Abby didn't want Lizzie to know about it.

For Andrew to have sent the note, the decision to meet Abby would have been spur-of-the-moment, otherwise, why not make the arrangement before leaving the house and dispense with the possibility of the note being intercepted by Lizzie? A will made and signed by Andrew would not require Abby's presence, although transferring a deed probably would. Anything which required Abby's signature to be notarized would require her presence, anything requiring only her signature could be brought home, signed, and returned later. Without checking Andrew's timeline that morning, I don't think he was at any of the banks for a long enough time to appear to be waiting to meet someone. I think he spent the greatest amount of time with Clegg dealing with the new store, and that was an unscheduled stop. Andrew would have had to allow time for the note to be delivered and for Abby to change and walk to the meeting place.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:38 pm

SallyG @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:18 pm wrote:True, Ray..but these were grown women...not teenagers. Instead of sponging off of Andrew and Abby, they should have either found a husband and had a family of their own, or had some meaningful employment...maybe then they would not have had time to worry about what Andrew was doing with his own property that they felt "entitled" to. In my opinion, they were not "entitled" to anything. If anyone was, it was Abby, who was Andrew's WIFE.

It doesn't even seem as if they did anything to find a husband, if that was what was needed to change their living situation. They seemed to be content to sit back and be supported ... at the same time it seems their friends were spinsters who WERE gainfully employed. I just can't figure out why they didn't feel any motivation to do something with their lives.

Given their class, working would be declasse. Brown explains why Lizzie could not find a husband. Those who were not as rich would be dismissed as fortune hunters. Those who were rich would do better than the granddaughter of a fish peddler.

Maybe you should be asking for a higher Income or Estate Tax?

Suppose the area where I was born was torn down for urban renewal. 50 yrs later some still remind me of this fact "you used to live where the projects are?". Witchy or bitchy?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:40 pm

stuartwsa @ Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:32 am wrote:If Lizzie had made the note up, I wonder why she didn't explain its non-existence by suggesting that Abby had thrown it in the stove and burned it? She explained away so many other "details", I wonder why she didn't come up with that obvious solution.

Because Lizzie told the truth!!! "I don't know where it is."
You can read Masterton's answer to that.
Or Arnold Brown's answer.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:41 pm

RayS @ Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:38 am wrote:
SallyG @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:18 pm wrote:True, Ray..but these were grown women...not teenagers. Instead of sponging off of Andrew and Abby, they should have either found a husband and had a family of their own, or had some meaningful employment...maybe then they would not have had time to worry about what Andrew was doing with his own property that they felt "entitled" to. In my opinion, they were not "entitled" to anything. If anyone was, it was Abby, who was Andrew's WIFE.

It doesn't even seem as if they did anything to find a husband, if that was what was needed to change their living situation. They seemed to be content to sit back and be supported ... at the same time it seems their friends were spinsters who WERE gainfully employed. I just can't figure out why they didn't feel any motivation to do something with their lives.
Given their class, working would be declasse. Brown explains why Lizzie could not find a husband. Those who were not as rich would be dismissed as fortune hunters. Those who were rich would do better than the granddaughter of a fish peddler.

Maybe you should be asking for a higher Income or Estate Tax?

Suppose the area where I was born was torn down for urban renewal. 50 yrs later some still remind me of this fact "you used to live where the projects are?". Witchy or bitchy?

Their class was entirely dependent upon Andrew's definition of the term. He didn't seem pretentious.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Yooper=

Lizzie was a bit vague in her knowledge about the note, I agree. Her testimony at the Inquest has her wording the exchange with Abby as "she said she had a note from somebody" which seems rather awkward if it is a direct quote from Abby.

--Yooper, partial.

This is Lizzie from her inquest, about the note:
65(22)
A. She told me she had had a note, somebody was sick, and said "I am going to get the dinner on the way," and asked me what I wanted for dinner.
...
Q. Did she tell you who the note was from?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ever see the note?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know where it is now?
A. No sir.
Q. She said she was going out that morning?
A. Yes sir.
...
80(37)
Q. In this time saying, you did not put that in. I want that conversation that you had with her that morning. I beg your pardon again, in this time of telling me, you did not say anything about her having received a note.
A. I told you that before.
Q. Miss Borden, I want you now to tell me all the talk you had with your mother, when you came down, and all the talk she had with you. Please begin again.
A. She asked me how I felt. I told her. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her not anything, what kind of meat I wanted for dinner. I told her not any. She said she had been up and made the spare bed, and was going to take up some linen pillow cases for the small pillows at the foot, and then the room was done. She says: "I have had a note from somebody that is sick, and I am going out, and I will get the din- [sic] at the same time." I think she said something about the weather, I don't know. She also asked me if I would direct some paper wrappers for her, which I did.
Q. She said she had had a note?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You told me yesterday you never saw the note?
A. No sir, I never did.
Q. You looked for it?
A. No sir, but the rest have.
Q. She did not say where she was going?
A. No sir.