Feedback on "Did Lizzie Have a Love Life?"

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:38 am

What do you think of the article?

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:43 pm

I think Lizzie had a love life...perhaps even several lovers. I think you did a very good job presenting possible candidates. You were also very unbiased, presenting both male and female possibilities. As this edition of The Hatchet showed. There's still a lot about the Bordens' lives we don't know.

I get so tired of "straight" Lizzie versus "lesbian" Lizzie versus "virgin" Lizzie. Why not let her be a bisexual hedonist when she gets the chance?

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:35 am

nbcatlover @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:43 pm wrote:I think Lizzie had a love life...perhaps even several lovers.

(Denise) I think it's important to remember that "love life" doesn't necessarily mean "lovers" in the sense of sexually consummated unions. A man or woman can have romances while remaining a virgin.

nbcatlover: I think you did a very good job presenting possible candidates.

(Denise) Thank you.

nbcatlover: You were also very unbiased, presenting both male and female possibilities.

(Denise) Thank you again. I try to cover all the bases in my Whittlings.

nbcatlover: As this edition of The Hatchet showed. There's still a lot about the Bordens' lives we don't know.

I get so tired of "straight" Lizzie versus "lesbian" Lizzie versus "virgin" Lizzie. Why not let her be a bisexual hedonist when she gets the chance?

(Denise) ; )

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:54 pm

Thank you, Denise, for bringing out that relevant point. A love affair or a courtship did not necessarily mean consumating the sexual act. Holding hands, a simple kiss, or singing duets at the piano could raise eyebrows and start whispers that "they're courtin'" in those days.

Compared to today's "train-wreck" girls (like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, etc.), it didn't take much to become a scandal in those days.

Yet, in the more "colonial" era (vs. the Victorian era), there are stories in family genealogies about divorces and adultery which would raise a few eyebrows.

While it was normal for unmarried family members to remain at home (if there was no overwhelming financial need), there was a societal expectation that those who were solvent should consider marriage. In many cases, it was not about love but about the consolidation of money and power.

This is what is so surprising about both Emma and Lizzie being single. You would think that Andrew, with no male heir, would have considered choosing a trusted male (probably a relative) and marrying a daughter off to preserve the family name and fortune (in a less notorious way than murder, that is).

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:53 pm

I think she might have be bisexual. Maybe that was one of the reasons Emma left. She got tried of all the antics going on in the house, and just left. She was more of the stable one.

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:17 am

I was just going to post a question about this!

I know that in her younger days Lizzie had a few "beaux", whom her formidable father probably scared off--probably something she deeply resented.

What she got up to at Maplecroft is anyone's guess, but my suspicion is that she died a virgin (at least a technical one).

Was she gay or bisexual? Who knows? Back then people just did not talk about such things--Lizzie may not have known herself!!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:21 am

I think she might have had a few beaus in her earlier years, but after the trial, it might have been difficult. Who wants to be seen with a accused murderer?
But I think she had them and maybe a few female friends too. But, who knows.

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:14 pm

Denise,

I finally got around to reading your article in the Hatchet (August 2007) last night. Well done! Your article pretty much summarizes all we can know about Lizzie's love life, which, unfortunately, isn't much. Of course, as you pointed out, there has certainly been a lot of speculation on this topic over the years. My own opinion is that it's possible that she was a lesbian or bi-sexual, but it's equally as possible that she was straight. It doesn't really matter at this point, I suppose, but it is certainly an interesting topic.

Michael

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:06 am

I really enjoyed your article. I always thought that Mr. Borden would want his daughters to marry for grandchilden but also so he wouldn't have to support them anymore. He was so cheap sometimes I just wonder if he wished they were supported by someone else. Also I'm sure that Lizzie was probably bisexual, but unfortunatly living in the times she did; made it totally impossible to experiment or even take these feeling seriously. They probably made her confused and feeling that something was "wrong" with her. After the trial and public exposure of her life I'm sure she felt very isolated, but being a survivor hopefully she took a chance & did what she wanted to try. It's hard when put in the spotlight now, I can't imagine how devastating it must have been back then where everyone knew everyone else in the town. Your article made me try to see and think the way she might have and I like to be able to see a different side of an issue or situation.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:08 am

I really enjoyed your article. I always thought that Mr. Borden would want his daughters to marry for grandchilden but also so he wouldn't have to support them anymore. He was so cheap sometimes I just wonder if he wished they were supported by someone else. Also I'm sure that Lizzie was probably bisexual, but unfortunatly living in the times she did; made it totally impossible to experiment or even take these feeling seriously. They probably made her confused and feeling that something was "wrong" with her. After the trial and public exposure of her life I'm sure she felt very isolated, but being a survivor hopefully she took a chance & did what she wanted to try. It's hard when put in the spotlight now, I can't imagine how devastating it must have been back then where everyone knew everyone else in the town. Your article made me try to see and think the way she might have and I like to be able to see a different side of an issue or situation.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:08 am

I really enjoyed your article. I always thought that Mr. Borden would want his daughters to marry for grandchilden but also so he wouldn't have to support them anymore. He was so cheap sometimes I just wonder if he wished they were supported by someone else. Also I'm sure that Lizzie was probably bisexual, but unfortunatly living in the times she did; made it totally impossible to experiment or even take these feeling seriously. They probably made her confused and feeling that something was "wrong" with her. After the trial and public exposure of her life I'm sure she felt very isolated, but being a survivor hopefully she took a chance & did what she wanted to try. It's hard when put in the spotlight now, I can't imagine how devastating it must have been back then where everyone knew everyone else in the town. Your article made me try to see and think the way she might have and I like to be able to see a different side of an issue or situation.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:10 am

I'm sorry, my computer froze!! (I did not have a finger spasmmmm)

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:06 am

I think Lizzie just wanted to be loved. She wasn't getting any affection from her father, and definately not from Abby. I think she might have been sexually abused too.

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:41 am

I know this is a bit of a delayed response, but I too have wondered if Lizzie was a victim of sexual abuse--the likeliest candidate (IMHO) being her father.

They did seem to have an odd, love-hate kind of relationship--when push came to shove, Andrew protected Lizzie (i.e. the shoplifting and household burglaries), he wore her high school ring til death--and maybe he had reasons for not wanting her to move away and marry? (Of course that wouldn't explain why Emma never married either!) But at the same time he could deny her even little luxuries, which I think she very much resented. Could Lizzie have also had other, deeper reasons for resenting her father? Incest victims often do have extremely conflicted, complex relationships with their abusers ( or so I have heard!).

It also might somehow explain that final ferocious explosion of rage that ended with both elder Bordens dead. I know this is probably simplistic psychobabble

but think of it this way: Lizzie may have hated her father for abusing her, and hated her stepmother for not protecting her.

Then again it's past my bedtime and this may make no sense at all!!

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:26 am

I've often thought that Lizzie (possibly Emma) were abuse victims. The attack on Andrew just seemed so personal & full of hatred. It's like (no pun intended) overkill. If it was just to get rid of Andrew & Abby I don't think the killer would have stood there & delivered so many blows. But years of pent up hatred, once starting to be released with the first blow, just continued until it was all out of the persons system.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:15 pm

Is it possible that Lizzie and Emma considered Abby a secondary entity, an outsider, and thought Andrew's allegiance was, or should be, with them? If they thought Abby was someone their father needed for the time being, he would have "betrayed their trust" with the purchase of the Whitehead residence. Their reaction to that seems way over the top. Lizzie might have hated Abby for becoming an insider and hated Andrew for allowing it at the time of the murders.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:27 pm

I don't discount the theory but it seems to me that a girl who was going to murder her father because of abuse, would do so at a much earlier age- like around 20 or 21.

Remember that Andrew had actually been married to Abbie (27 years) much longer than to the Borden girl's mother, Sarah (18 years), and Lizzie barely remembered her mother.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:22 am

I think it was a compilation of things, but the final blow to Lizzie was the realization that she could possibly be kept under Abby's financial thumb when her dad died, just as she had been with him all those years, and that was just too much to bear. She thought she could put up with it with him until he died because she had some allegiance to her dad, but the thought of having to live the rest of her life at Abby's mercy (a woman she hated) if Abby was put in charge of the money was unfathomable. She had probably thought that there was a light at the end of the tunnel with her dad's eventual death because she and Emma would get the money, but then something may have happened to make her think Abby was going to inherit it instead, leaving Lizzie with a bleak future. Plus, when Abby died, then the money would be inherited by HER family, not the Borden sisters, and then they would be out in the cold. I think Lizzie felt like a trapped rat with no way out. And then she thought of one.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:47 pm

I think that Lizzie and Emma might have had a better understanding of the laws of inheritance than we do.

There were tales told that Lizzie checked that out. (Whether true or not- but she did ask questions of Cook, her father's man of business, about the value of the Ferry Street property.)
Back then the wife would get a portion but so then would the natural daughters. I do think they knew that, will or no will.

But it's interesting to find out that Lil' Abbie Potter did not understand the laws of inheritance and thought, her whole life, that her side of the family had been cheated of money.
I would think it's possible that the Gray side of the family might be suspicious characters as to motive themselves.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 pm

To add here- that if Lizzie planned these murders for money, and planned over time, like fantasizing- then I do think she would find out about wills and laws of inheritance, even if she only researched at the Library.