Oddly similar

[Bob Gutowski]

I read today what the mother of Madeleine McCann, that now internationally known missing child, said when she discovered the tot missing from the bedroom. It was "They've taken her!"

I should be slow to believe the mother had anything to do with the mystery, but it did remind me of Lizzie's announcement, "Father's dead - someone came in and killed him."

Not "Where is she?" Not "Father's dead - we must leave the house lest we be struck down, as well!"

Hmm.

[Yooper]

Good point, Bob, it almost indicates a degree of removal from the activity, doesn't it? It is as though the person speaking is an observer rather than a participant.

[Bob Gutowski]

Exactly. I've always found Lizzie's first response really odd. It's as if she were speaking to Alice, and not Bridget, as a continuation of her rant the night before: "See, I TOLD you someone would come in and kill him!"

[Yooper]

I guess assigning a reason to a condition might imply a degree of preparedness. Rather than simply "she's gone" or "father is dead", there are embellishments stated as reasons for the condition. In Lizzie's case, she had no reason other than trust or guilt to assume that anyone "came in". With the front door bolted and locked and having heard or seen no one from the barn, why would she assume Bridget was not guilty?

[Angel]

That is SUCH a good point. If Lizzie was innocent she would be suspecting anyone and everyone- Bridget would be at the top of her list since she was right in the house. Instead, she just automatically stated it was some "they", and trusted Bridget right off the bat.

[Harry]

Bob G. posted (partial):

"I read today what the mother of Madeleine McCann, that now internationally known missing child, said when she discovered the tot missing from the bedroom. It was "They've taken her!"

Strangely reminiscent of the Lindbergh case. This is how the finding of the missing baby was described in "Kidnap" by George Waller:

"Anne Lindbergh had gone into the nursery, hastily searched the crib, and returned to her bedroom. Now her husband ran into the baby's room, saw too that the crib was empty, and inspected it closely.
The bedclothes seemed untouched, still forming the contours of the child's body. The two large safety pins with which Betty had fastened the blanket and sheets to the mattress were undisturbed, and Lindbergh could see the impression left by his son's head on the pillow. It was obvious that the little boy had not clambered out of the crib by himself.
The young father hurried through the bathroom to his bedroom and took a Springfield rifle from his closet. He swiftly returned to the nursery and Anne followed, nervously clutching her robe.
He turned and faced her. "Anne, they have stolen our baby."
In a hushed voice, Anne said, "Oh, my God . . . . "

[Yooper]

The hell of it is, Lizzie stood and waited at the bottom of the stairs after calling out to Bridget and determining that she was still alive! I would have been climbing the stairs three at a time, armed with a shotgun!

[Angel]

Yes! If Lizzie was innocent she wouldn't have known that Bridget hadn't been murdered too.

[Tina-Kate]

He turned and faced her. "Anne, they have stolen our baby."
In a hushed voice, Anne said, "Oh, my God . . . . "

(Harry, partial)

I'm thinking the difference here might be the fact he was so famous. The pronoun "they" may have come into the couple's vernacular in their everyday life to describe pesky photographers, autograph hounds, etc.

[Kat]

To give Lizzie her due, she claims in her inquest testimony not to have known her father was dead when she found him. She also claims that she did not say what we think we recall about Mrs. Borden.

Here is Lizzie herself at the inquest. This section covers both Andrew and Abbie so it is a little long.

Q. When you saw your father where was he?
A. On the sofa.
Q. What was his position?
A. Lying down.
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.
Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not.
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who did you send Maggie for?
A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there.
Q. What did you tell Maggie?
A. I told her he was hurt.
Q. When you first told her?
A. I says "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can, I think father is hurt."
Q. Did you then know that he was dead?
A. No, sir.
Q. You saw him?
A. Yes sir.
79 (36)
Q. You went into the room?
A. No sir.
Q. Looked in at the door?
A. I opened the door and rushed back.
Q. Saw his face?
A. No, I did not see his face, because he was all covered with blood.
Q. You saw where the face was bleeding?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see the blood on the floor?
A. No sir.
Q. You saw his face covered with blood?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see his eye ball hanging out?
A. No sir.
Q. See the gashes where his face was laid open?
A. No sir.
Q. Nothing of that kind?
A. No sir. (Witness covers her face with her hand for a minute or two; then examination is resumed.

[Kat]

Dr. Bowen at inquest says when he was informed by his wife to go over to the Borden's, he thought they were worse. He then says that in the hall when he met up with Lizzie she told him that her father was hurt.

This is long too.

Q. What was the first information that you had of the tragedy.
A. I drove up to my house, and my wife came to the door, and made a motion, and says “they want you quick over to Mr. Borden’s.” The same time I think Thomas Bowles, a man that works across the street told me, at the same time, I dont know which was first. I thought probably they were worse, so I went right over quick.
Q. When you got there who did you find?
A. I found Miss Lizzie.
Q. Anybodyelse?
A. Bridget.
Q. You were the first outsider then to get there?
A. So far as I know.
Q. Mrs. Churchill had not then got there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Miss Lizzie speak to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Tell exactly what happened now.
A. I went to the door, and I met them in the hall, I went in the side door, I thought I would get in there quicker, I was so much in a hurry I happened to go that way. I met Miss Lizzie in the hall, and Bridget. I says “Lizzie what is the matter?” I spoke pretty quick. I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said she was afraid her father had been stabbed or hurt. I think the word stabbed was used. I says “has there been anybody here”? She said no, not as she knew of, I would not say that she said “no”, I take that back; she said not as she knew of, I think. She said she had overheard her father several times talking loud recently, and said she was afraid some of the tenants had had some trouble with him. That is just as near as I can remember it.
Q. That conversation took place immediately?
A. That took place immediately, the first thing. I says “where is he?” The door was shut, as it usually is, I never saw it open hardly, between the kitchen and the sitting room. I went through the dining room.
Q. You said “where is he”, what answer did she give?
A. In the sitting room. She beckoned along through the dining room. I went through the dining room to the door between the dining room and the sitting room, that was directly at the head of the sofa. As soon as I got at the door, I could see the whole room, and saw him. Of course I was prepared for something awful, as I did not hear him, and there was no sound. He lay there still, unrecognizable, his face was cut in such a manner I never should have known who it was. I stepped in a second, looked around the room to see if there was any disturbance. It struck me like a flash to see if there was anything left in the room. Then I went right back again, and told them that their father was dead. I took hold of his pulse, and found he was dead, satisfied
myself. I did not know that he was when I saw him. I took hold of his pulse, and found he was pulseless. Then I went back and informed them that he was dead.

[Kat]

Mrs. Dr. Bowen says at the Prelim just that Bridget inquired for the Dr.
Then she says when Dr. Bowen came home he went over to the Borden's then came and told her Andrew was dead. So at Trial when she is asked if she knew before she went over that Andrew was dead she said yes, because Dr. Bowen told her, before Bridget was sent back to get her.

Mrs. Dr. Bowen at Preliminary Hearing:

Q. Now the day of the murder, was it you Bridget first spoke to about something being wrong over there?
A. She came to my house soon after eleven o'clock, for the Doctor.
Q. Can you give me any idea what time it was?
A. I had occasion to look at the clock five minutes to eleven; it was soon after that, she came to the house and inquired for Dr. Bowen.
Q. And he was out?
A. Yes Sir. I told her I wound send him as soon as he came in.
Q. Did you go over then?

Page 479

A. I did not.
Q. Did you go over before the Doctor came home?
A. I did not. The Doctor went over to the house, and came in and told me Mr. Borden was dead. Soon after that, Bridget came back.
Q. The second time?
A. She did. She rang my bell, and said Miss Lizzie wanted me to come over.
Q. Did you go over then?
A. I was delayed a few seconds, and then I went over.


Trial
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
1587
Q. Were you somewhat agitated yourself, Mrs. Bowen?
A. Before I went home.

Q. But you knew what had happened when you got there?
A. I only knew Mr. Borden had been killed.

Q. You knew that before you got there?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were somewhat agitated when you got over at that time?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You went in there with the knowledge that a murder had been committed?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were not looking at her with the idea that any one charged her with the murder, were you?
A. No, sir.

Q. But only as an object of pity?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And as being afflicted with a common grief, did you?
A. Yes, sir.

[Kat]

Now we can add Alice as one Bridget went to go get.

Alice
inquest
147
A. I think It was about quarter past eleven when I saw Bridget coming up the steps, and my work is so I can see any one coming up the steps, where I was at work. I knew there was trouble because Lizzie told me Mr. and Mrs. Borden were sick the night before, very sick, so the first impression I got was that somebody was sick there.
Q. She told you Tuesday night they were sick?
A. Yes Sir. I stepped to the door, and I says “what is it Bridget, are they worse”, or Maggie. She says, “yes, I dont know but what Mr. Borden is dead.” I dont know whether she said “come over”. I dont remember what she said. I said “I will come right over as soon as I change my dress; which I did.
Q. She did not tell you how he had been killed, or anything of that sort?
A. She did not, no.
Q. She said what?
A. She says “he is worse, I dont know but what Mr. Borden is dead.”


--Alice says she did not know it was murder until Morse came.
Page 148--

A. No Sir. Then I remember of Maggie and Mrs. Churchill starting, and Maggie says “O, I cant go through that room”. Dr. Bowen says “get me a sheet, and I will cover Mr. Borden over”. They started and went after that. Then when they came down I remember Mrs. Churchill saying “O, Mrs. Borden” this way. Whatever she said or did gave me that impression that she had gone too. I did not then know either of them were murdered. I supposed it was from this impression of the poison that I had had in my mind.
Q. When did you first learn that they were murdered?
A. I got Lizzie into the dining room, on to the dining room lounge, and we were there, I dont know how long, when her Uncle came in.
Q. That is Morse?
A. Yes Sir. And something he said about their being murdered, and looked up to her, then it dawned on my mind that it was cold blooded murder. That is the first idea that I had that it was murder.

--Alice seems to have equated the "poisoning episode" as a natural illness and not deliberate murder. If Bridget was sent to get a Doctor, get Alice, and later fetch Mrs. Bowen, at least we can tell she wasn't running around saying Andrew was "killed."
Also consider the time involved, and what Bridget may have learned after each time she returned to the house, only to be sent away again.

[Bob Gutowski]

Harry, do you think the theory which supposes that Lucky Lindy accidentally killed his own child holds any water?

On the other hand, I can see a public phenomenon like Lindbergh saying "they," to mean, as you suggest, "those damned people who hound us."

[Yooper]

Bridget, from the trial, page 240:

Q. What is the next that occurred as you were lying upon the bed?

A. Miss Lizzie hollered, "Maggie, come down!" I said, "What is the matter?" She says, "Come down quick; father's dead: somebody come in and killed him."

The phrase "Maggie, come down" implies knowledge, or at least the assumption, that "Maggie" is still alive, rather than "Maggie?...(wait for a response). Why?

[Angel]

It's things like this...small things which offer no proof, but there are so very many of them, that I just cannot see anyone other than Lizzie guilty of this crime.

[Harry]

He turned and faced her. "Anne, they have stolen our baby."
In a hushed voice, Anne said, "Oh, my God . . . . "

(Harry, partial)

I'm thinking the difference here might be the fact he was so famous. The pronoun "they" may have come into the couple's vernacular in their everyday life to describe pesky photographers, autograph hounds, etc.

Yes, Tina-Kate and Bob G., that was the authors view as well. To me it was more the similarity of the words themselves, not their meaning. The author writes:

"He said, 'Anne, they have stolen our baby.'

They. Not Anne, our baby's been stolen but Anne, they have stolen our baby. Then who were they?

David Wilentz knew and therefore did not linger at this point. He knew not because Charles Lindbergh had told him but because, knowing Lindbergh's history and, far more important, knowing the young man himself, as the attorney general had come to know him in the days before the trial, he knew there could be only one answer. In that moment of discovery, of anger and of mortal anguish, Lindbergh had meant by they---the crowd: the great, demanding, ever-pursuing, ever-present crowd, which if it could, in its insatiable curiosity, would leave untouched not a shred of his privacy---would tear his clothes apart, pluck hairs from his head, reach into every corner of his life---would suffocate him and his in its fever to possess him, the idol, the famous one who had grown to fear his fame. "

I don't think Lindbergh himself was involved. But there had to be some sort of inside help. One look at that ladder against the wall says to me that it would almost be impossible for the kidnapper to climb out the window, the baby in his arms, onto that ladder and descend to the ground.

Like Lizzie, it was Lindbergh who vouched for the hired help.

[Bob Gutowski]

But isn't it believed that the kidnaper did actually try to do just that, and thus dropped and killed little Lindy?

I'm reading a novel Stephen King wrote as Richard Bachman a while ago and recently rewrote and published, Blaze. It involves the kidnaping of an infant.

[augusta]

That is true. I never stopped to think that Lizzie knew Bridget was okay.
That feels like an important clew.

When my brother died totally unexpectedly, I was called by the cops. Had no idea what was up and never even thought of my brother dying. When they told me, my reaction was, "George is dead????!!!! Oh, no, no, no, no!" Suddenly I thought to ask, "What happened?" Then I turned the phone over to my husband and went nuts in the living room.

Did Lizzie never ask, "What happened?" about her father? Even with her 'premonition' the night before - why would she say "they" and why did she not ask "what happened". I know you don't know unless it is you it happening to, but myself I would probably have screamed hysterically (and I am not a screamer by any means, no matter what movie cliche' may fit), run out of the house and probably stumbled on Dr. Bowen's porch in a semi-haze.

Two weeks before the Lindbergy baby kidnapping, Lindbergh hid the baby for like 2 hours and his wife and a domestic went crazy looking for him. He was known to play very cruel - he almost killed some guys when he was pranked and he pranked them back - jokes on people. After 2 hours, he revealed that he had hidden the baby in a closet. He was also on the grounds earlier than anyone thought and had his car parked in the driveway so it couldn't be seen. Didn't he refuse fingerprints to be taken in the child's room? A lot points to him - that he did it as a joke that went way wrong. Could be.

Hauptmann sounds like he was framed, but then he did have that Fish money stashed away. His son is probably alive today. It'd be fabulous if someone got an interview from him today. Did they name him "Fred"? "Fred Hauptmann" comes to me for some reason. Wife Anna remained public until her death in like 1994. I never heard mention of the Hauptmann's son. I'm assuming he changed his name.

Well, that would make sense why Violet Sharpe killed herself, then. If she helped Lindbergh with this 'joke' she was probably mortified that the child died, and she could not make public what America's darling had done. No one would have believed her, and that'd be true. He was IT to America. It was probable that she knew. But what did she know?

In one of her great books, daughter Reeve Lindbergh says that to this day she will get letters - and visits - from old men claiming to be the Lindbergh baby. That was always happening since she was a child to her parents.

Her book "Under a Wing" is fascinating. It's about her life growing up as one of the five Lindbergh kids. Her other book (can't think of its name) tells of mother Anne's last years and is riveting.

[augusta]

That is true. I never stopped to think that Lizzie knew Bridget was okay.
That feels like an important clew.

When my brother died totally unexpectedly, I was called by the cops. Had no idea what was up and never even thought of my brother dying. When they told me, my reaction was, "George is dead????!!!! Oh, no, no, no, no!" Suddenly I thought to ask, "What happened?" Then I turned the phone over to my husband and went nuts in the living room.

Did Lizzie never ask, "What happened?" about her father? Or "Who did this??" Even with her 'premonition' the night before - why would she say "they" and why did she not ask "what happened". I know you don't know unless it is you it happening to, but myself I would probably have screamed hysterically (and I am not a screamer by any means, no matter what movie cliche' may fit), run out of the house and probably stumbled on Dr. Bowen's porch in a semi-haze.

Two weeks before the Lindberg baby kidnapping, Lindbergh hid the baby for like 2 hours and his wife and a domestic went crazy looking for him. He was known to play very cruel - he almost killed some guys when he was pranked and he pranked them back - jokes on people. After 2 hours, he revealed that he had hidden the baby in a closet. He was also on the grounds earlier than anyone thought and had his car parked in the driveway so it couldn't be seen. Didn't he refuse fingerprints to be taken in the child's room? A lot points to him - that he did it as a joke that went way wrong. Could be.

Hauptmann sounds like he was framed, but then he did have that Fish money stashed away. His son is probably alive today. It'd be fabulous if someone got an interview from him today. Did they name him "Fred"? "Fred Hauptmann" comes to me for some reason. Wife Anna remained public until her death in like 1994. I never heard mention of the Hauptmann's son. I'm assuming he changed his name.

Well, that would make sense why Violet Sharpe killed herself, then. If she helped Lindbergh with this 'joke' she was probably mortified that the child died, and she could not make public what America's darling had done. No one would have believed her, and that'd be true. He was IT to America. It was probable that she knew. But what did she know?

In one of her great books, daughter Reeve Lindbergh says that to this day she will get letters - and visits - from old men claiming to be the Lindbergh baby. That was always happening since she was a child to her parents.

Her book "Under a Wing" is fascinating. It's about her life growing up as one of the five Lindbergh kids. Her other book (can't think of its name) tells of mother Anne's last years and is riveting.

Yes, Lindbergh saying "They have stolen/taken our son" is believable, since he was so much a public idol. It's like when JFK was shot, Jackie said, "They've killed him!" And she sure as heck didn't do it.

[Yooper]

It's things like this...small things which offer no proof, but there are so very many of them, that I just cannot see anyone other than Lizzie guilty of this crime.

Lizzie's behavior immediately after "discovering" her father seems inconsistent with innocence. If she really didn't know he was dead and suspected he might be alive, she had to know he was gravely injured. Why waste time summoning the hired help? Why not run over to Dr. Bowen herself?

[Harry]

But isn't it believed that the kidnaper did actually try to do just that, and thus dropped and killed little Lindy?

I'm reading a novel Stephen King wrote as Richard Bachman a while ago and recently rewrote and published, Blaze. It involves the kidnaping of an infant.

That is one of the theories of the crime. I tend to believe that it would be more likely that someone handed the baby out the window.

I remember another theory that the ladder could have been a red herring and that the baby was carried outside.

[Kat]

I was thinking today about the testimony I posted and the implication that Lizzie did not know her father was killed- meaning dead. Since there was blood, she knew he had been attacked, but even Dr. Bowen said he had to take a pulse to make sure Andrew was dead.
What I was thinking is that she might not leave the house, in case he was alive- but might linger at the doorway to get out quickly if anyone suspicious showed themselves. Thus she would send the servant for help and stay with the body, so to speak- in case he was still alive might be the operative phrase. It could be from her natural daughter's affection or it could be because she felt protective of him- or protecting an escape route for an intruder she was in cahoots with. Either way, it's possible she did not know he was dead.

I only give this kind of "proof" with/through testimony because it's another way of looking at the evidence.
It's sworn statements I've offered here, by those other than Bridget and Mrs. Churchill. I think we overlook Lizzie too much in favor of these other two.

[augusta]

That's true, Kat. But myself, I don't take Lizzie's testimony too seriously because she was on that morphine at the time. And lie after lie - or she was mixed up so much - in her testimony. I don't know that it's worth a whole lot.

That might be the only plausible reason for her to have remained in the house. Excellent deductions, Kat! But still, it doesn't explain why she would stay if the attacker was still in the house, or certainly could be. Standing at the screen door I don't think is a great place to be. Anyone could have snuck up behind her. Still, her saying, "I can't be alone," has always puzzled me. Did she have that much faith in the screen door being flung open when she returned to the house, that the attacker actually fled?

I think that doctors have to examine the patient no matter what shape they're in to pronounce them dead.

[william]

I have always believed that Lizzie was the major culprit in the murders of Mr. and Mrs. Borden.

Mindful of this it is possible she may have lied on the stand. Perhaps the morphine had an adverse affect on her answers. Or, just maybe, answering over eight hundred questions on the witness stand was just too much for anyone to cope with, even an innocent witness.
I see more gray than black and white when I try to analyze this question.

[Angel]

While I believe Lizzie to be guilty, I also put stock in the theory that she was the victim of abuse and, in her eyes, felt completely justified in what she did to escape the years of misery. I think her anger towards Abby in not having helped her was compounded by the fear that she might someday have to go to her for financial support if her dad died and left Abby in charge of the money. She may have felt that even if her dad died she would still have to depend on someone who had let her down during her formative years.

[Yooper]

I think if we accept parts of Lizzie's Inquest testimony, then we must accept it in its entirety, inconsistencies and all. If we disregard parts of it, then we should disregard all of it. William makes a good point about the extent of the questioning, Lizzie answered a lot of questions. Still, the truth will be substantially the same answer no matter how many times it is given. I don't know how morphine might affect someone under questioning, whether it would affect certain questions and answers at random or all questions and answers equally. If the latter is true, Lizzie would have been just as likely to give her name and age incorrectly as well as other relatively simple or obvious answers.

[Kat]

Augusta, this is what I posted that Dr. Bowen testified to:
I took hold of his pulse, and found he was dead, satisfied myself. I did not know that he was when I saw him. I took hold of his pulse, and found he was pulseless. Then I went back and informed them that he was dead.

I don't discount anyone's testimony under oath, not Lizzie, nor anyones.

[Kat]

If I don't believe Bridget in one thing, I'm not going to throw out everything she says.
She may be an accomplice with hints in her statements to that effect. That might make her seem inconsistent.

[Yooper]

Disregarding Lizzie's Inquest testimony has nothing to do with believing her, it has to do with whether or not she was able to answer questions competently at the time. I believe Lizzie when she states her name, but I disbelieve her when she says she was downstairs when Andrew arrived, and I believe her when she says she was upstairs when Andrew arrived for several reasons. If we accept the Inquest testimony, then the inconsistency may be an attempt to mislead. However, if the inconsistency is from the effects of morphine, then we should disregard Lizzie's Inquest testimony altogether. I suggest that her oath is a moot point if taken under the effects of morphine, also.

[augusta]

It was thrown out at the trial in part due to her being under the influence. (Or was that part only in the movie....?) And rightly so, I think.

Did she really say on the stand that, regarding her Father: "He will be 70 next month,"? Another bizarre answer was, "I don't even know what your name is," to Knowlton. She gave such confusing testimony - I don't see how it can count for much.

Kat - Yes, I know you posted about Dr. Bowen testing his pulse. I thought someone on this thread wondered why Dr. Bowen bothered to check to see if he was dead, since it looked so horrific. I was posting to say that I thought it was the law for him to check in some way(s).

I agree with you. I wouldn't disregard everything Bridget said because of one thing being wrong or lied about. But she wasn't on morphine. And her answers were not all mixed up.

She did at first say (before the inquest, like to the cops) that she was upstairs cleaning up her room. Then changed it to 'resting'.

I think Bridget should have been treated the same as Lizzie. She was actually in the house when the old man was attacked. I think it was a mistake for them not to treat Lizzie and Bridget as equal suspects.

I think it's in one of the closing arguments that Bridget was exempt because when Mrs. Borden got whacked, Bridget was cleaning the windows in full view of everyone. I think if we took that apart and researched Bridget and the windows (which may have been done before on the Forum) we would find opportunities for her to have done it. And she probably would have cracked, too.

[Smudgeman]

I flip-flop back and forth as to whether I believe Bridget or not. If Lizzie needed her to be outside as a watch out, then I think she is being untruthful, but if Lizzie took the opportunity to act while Bridget was outside, then I believe she told what she knew. But maybe Bridget put 2 and 2 together, and knew Lizzie was the one, but wanted to distance herself from the house, so she couldn't be pin-pointed at any time, after all, she was busy throwing-up, cleaning kitchens, and cleaning windows. Too bad they didn't have a dog or a cat in the house at the time, pets are a dead giveaway to things being "out of sorts".

[Nadzieja]

I keep thinking about Lizzie's reaction. I can see calling for Bridget, but after that I probably would have been too frightened to stay in the house, I'd have to get outside. It just seems that she should have shown more fright seeing her father covered in blood. That is of course unless she knew beforehand what was going to happen, or she did it herself.

[Kat]

The inquest testimony was not allowed because the court decided she was pretty much under arrest- due to that warrant in their pocket but did not serve. I don't recall that the drug she had available entered into it.
You'all are talking about her on morphine- can you show she was taking it?

Yes Bridget has no alibi for either murder.

[Yooper]

There is no proof that Lizzie was taking the morphine as Dr. Bowen prescribed it (or not at all) and there is no way of knowing Lizzie's reaction to morphine in the dosages prescribed. I'm inclined to accept her Inquest testimony. She seems lucid, even conversational at times and she seems to respond in kind if the question is phrased antagonistically. She breaks down momentarily during the bombardment with a comment to the effect of not remembering what answer(s) she had given previously due to the number of questions. While this seems to be the response of someone juggling several stories, the point is that she was able to juggle stories to an extent, which she may not have been able to do if morphine was affecting her adversely.

If morphine caused confusion and inconsistency, then Lizzie's Inquest testimony is questionable. If morphine did not cause the confusion and inconsistency, then Lizzie was confused and inconsistent for another reason and her Inquest testimony is questionable. I think most of us understand this intuitively and tend to distrust Lizzie's answers during the Inquest.

[Cheryl]

These are all great points!

If Lizzie were truly innocent, she would have been breathless and frightened and I suspect would have run frantically from the house.
If she were truly innocent, I could also see the other scenario of sending Bridget for Dr. Bowen, and running back to her father and holding his hand (adreniline does wonders for allowing us to withstand horrible things), or at least calling to him -- "Father, hang in there, we are sending for a doctor, you'll be okay..."

And what about hearing the mother? When was she supposed to have heard the mother come in? She said in her interview that she made no effort to look for her because she knew she was gone. And then during Bridget's short absence she apparently thought she heard her come in???
Wouldn't she assume the "noise" was the killer? Or if she truly thought her stepmother came home, wouldn't she run towards the sound saying
"Oh, Mrs. Borden, don't come in here!"

Or, if she supposedly heard her stepmother come home BEFORE she saw her father killed, wouldn't she scream for her to come down as well? Why just Bridget?

[Yooper]

What I keep coming back to is this; what would an innocent person know or not know having just discovered her father as Lizzie did Andrew? If we take her at her word, not knowing if he was dead or alive, but assuming he was at least gravely injured, she would know he needed a doctor, pronto! She would not know a) that Bridget was alive, and b) assuming she was alive, that Bridget was not responsible for the current condition of her father.

What Lizzie did, rather than run for the doctor herself, thereby also removing herself from possible immediate harm, was to call Bridget in a manner which suggests that Lizzie either knew or assumed Bridget was still alive (although for no apparent reason). She then waited for her to descend the stairs, very likely with hatchet in hand (why not, if Lizzie was innocent?), which she had no apparent reason to doubt!

I've probably run the subject of Lizzie hearing Abby return into the ground by now, but there was no opportunity for Lizzie to hear an intruder leave which she mistook for Abby's arrival, and that's according to Lizzie herself.

To me, Lizzie's behavior immediately after the murders is completely inconsistent with innocence. If we plug in the pretext that Lizzie killed or helped kill her parents, then everything about her behavior makes sense. Funny how that works.

[NESpinster]

These are all great points!

If Lizzie were truly innocent, she would have been breathless and frightened and I suspect would have run frantically from the house.
If she were truly innocent, I could also see the other scenario of sending Bridget for Dr. Bowen, and running back to her father and holding his hand (adreniline does wonders for allowing us to withstand horrible things), or at least calling to him -- "Father, hang in there, we are sending for a doctor, you'll be okay..."

And what about hearing the mother? When was she supposed to have heard the mother come in? She said in her interview that she made no effort to look for her because she knew she was gone. And then during Bridget's short absence she apparently thought she heard her come in???
Wouldn't she assume the "noise" was the killer? Or if she truly thought her stepmother came home, wouldn't she run towards the sound saying
"Oh, Mrs. Borden, don't come in here!"

Or, if she supposedly heard her stepmother come home BEFORE she saw her father killed, wouldn't she scream for her to come down as well? Why just Bridget?

"Wouldn't she [Lizzie] assume the 'noise' was the killer?"
Great question, Cheryl, why hadn't I thought of that?!

And if she had just found her father murdered (or at least horribly wounded) it's hard to believe that she would have just hung around the house--and not just that, but sent Bridget out to "get help". How did Lizzie know she wasn't leaving herself alone in the house with a maniacal killer??

And another excellent point--how did she know that Bridget was alive and well, and not another victim? OR the killer herself?

Lizzie seems to have known exactly what was going on in that house!

[SteveS.]

NESpinster wrote "Lizzie seems to have known exactly what was going on in that house!"

That is exactly what convinced me of Lizzie's guilt. We will never know for sure what really took place in that house that morning......but following that logic....if Lizzie was truly innocent...she didn't know what took place in that house that morning also. But yet her behavior and reaction that morning in "discovering" her father, calling for Bridget, who as far as Lizzie should have surmised was the only other person in the house so bridget should have been the prime suspect in Lizzie's mind to have injured her father, sending Bridget off for a Dr. and leaving herself alone in that house...not returning to her fathers side who she thought wasn't dead at the time to comfort him but just standing at the back door. Not even worrying about Mrs. Bordens reaction to accidentaly finding Mr. Borden in that condition but just sort of non chalantly stating she thought she heard her come in. I say YES, and again YES, Lizzie knew exactly what was going on in that house that morning as if she was here reading the facts like we are over 100 years later.

[Bob Gutowski]

I always also wondered if Lizzie sent Bridget off and DIDN'T leave the house because she had weapons to hide, or clothing to change, or a need to make sure father was, indeed, really, most sincerely dead before the inevitable parade of visitors and policemen.

Good point above about the morphine not being an excuse for Lizzie's inconsistencies if she was telling the truth. Anyway, her odd assortment of excuses for her supposed barn visit are suspicious enough to me.

[twinsrwe]

I always also wondered if Lizzie sent Bridget off and DIDN'T leave the house because she had weapons to hide, or clothing to change, or a need to make sure father was, indeed, really, most sincerely dead before the inevitable parade of visitors and policemen. ...

I'm agree with you on this one, Bob. I have always thought Lizzie had some cleaning up to do while Bridget was running around here and there; wherever Lizzie commanded her to go. Yeah, I think Lizzie knew exactly what she was doing!!!

[Yooper]

Just to throw some gasoline on the match, consider taking Lizzie literally. She thought she heard Abby arrive, or so she says. If she truly thought Abby had arrived, how did she know that Abby hadn't killed Andrew? With their history together, why didn't Lizzie arm herself with an axe and go looking for Abby at that point?

[Tina-Kate]

Lizzie would not have had a lot of time for last minute clean ups. She sends Bridget to Bowens, Bridget comes right back (B has been seen by Mrs Churchill). B heads off again to Alice Russell's & shortly thereafter, Mrs C sees Lizzie at the side door.

I would think Lizzie would have done everything before calling Bridget down. After all, Bridget was resting before getting dinner ready & Lizzie could have had a lot more time to do things had she waited.

So, I tend to think Lizzie was already done when she summoned Bridget.

[Nadzieja]

Lizzie did have some time alone. In the inquest statement by Adelaid Churchill page 130 (37) The question---while you were gone down to Bowles', there was nobody there, so far as you know, but Lizzie and the servant? Answer----I left her alone when I went, the servant had not got back form the other errand. I don't know how much time this is talking about but it might have been enough to hide anything incriminating to herself, or maybe let someone out of the cellar if there was someone hiding there.

[Kat]

I posted this earlier:
Lizzie:
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who did you send Maggie for?
A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there.
Q. What did you tell Maggie?
A. I told her he was hurt.
Q. When you first told her?
A. I says "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can, I think father is hurt."
Q. Did you then know that he was dead?
A. No, sir.

--There may be more, but y'all can find it if you like. Seems clear to me what her stance is. Does the questioner get her to admit she heard Abbie come in?

[Kat]

Lizzie might have called for Bridget because she herself thought an enemy of her father had come in and stabbed him. She might react instinctively by calling Bridget. Especially if she thought Abbie was out. She might have called out first to Bridget thinking maybe Bridget was out as well. Bridget had said she would have some of that dress goods on sale. Lizzie might have been calling up to see if she was gone or home.
Relying on Bridget doesn't quite sit easy with me because she could very well be part of whatever happened. She had no alibi, as I answered earlier.
Besides, if Bridget answers, Bridget's alive. Just her answering tells Lizzie everything, because she does not suspect her right away, so then she sets things in motion.

[Yooper]

Bridget and Mrs. Churchill told a different story about Lizzie having heard Abby arrive:

Bridget Sullivan, October 1, 1892, Harrington, partial, Witness Statements p. 22:

“When I returned from Miss Russell’s, I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs. Whitehead’s to see if Mrs. Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said, no, I think I heard her come in.”

Mrs. Churchill, August 8, 1892, Harrington and Doherty, Witness Statements p. 11:

Second interview of Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill. “Must I, am I obliged to tell you all?” “Well, if I must, I cant be blamed. O, I wish I had not to do this. I do not like to tell anything of my neighbor; but this is as it is. When I went over in answer to Lizzie’s call, I asked O, Lizzie where is your father? In the sitting room. Where were you? I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron. Where is your mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too. Has any man been to see your father this morning? Not that I know of. Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a Doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in. Will I go and get one or find someone who will?

Mrs. Churchill, Inquest Testimony, p.128:

Q. What was the first thing you did?
A. I went into the house, stepped through to the kitchen, laid my parcels on a bench which runs right across one of the south windows that looks into Mr. Borden’s back yard. At the screen door, standing by the screen door I saw Lizzie as if she was in great distress.
Q. How did she show that?
A. Perhaps she rubbed her head. I knew something was wrong, of course, by the appearance. I opened one of the south windows, one had a screen in and the other did not, I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said “O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, somebody has killed Father.” I went right through the house and went out the front door and went over. When I got there she sat on the second stair which is right at the right of the screen door as you come in, the back stairs.
Q. Crying?
A. No Sir. I put my hand on her arm, this way, and said “Lizzie, where is your father”? She says “in the sitting room”. I said “where was you when it happened?” She said “I went to the barn to get a piece of iron.” I said “where is your mother”? She says “I dont know, she had a note to go and see some one that was sick this morning, but I dont know but they have killed her too.” She said “father must have had an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned.” The she said “Dr. Bowen is not at home, but I must have a Doctor”. I says “shall I go and try to find someone to go and get a doctor”?

Lizzie would have no reason to believe that Abby had been killed unless Abby was in the house. Lizzie also had this to say at the Inquest (p.62+):

Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room up stairs.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came home?
A. I don't know sure, but I think I was.
Q. What were you doing?
A. As I say, I took up these clean clothes, and stopped and basted a little piece of tape on a
garment.
Q. Did you come down before your father was let in?
A. I was on the stairs coming down when she let him in.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came to the house on his return?
A. I think I was.
Q. How long had you been there?
A. I had only been upstairs just long enough to take the clothes up and baste the little loop on
the sleeve. I don't think I had been up there over five minutes.
Q. Was Maggie still engaged in washing windows when your father got back?
A. I don't know.
Q. You remember, Miss Borden, I will call your attention to it so as to see if I have any
misunderstanding, not for the purpose of confusing you; you remember that you told me several
times that you were down stairs, and not up stairs when your father came home? You have
forgotten, perhaps?
A. I don't know what I have said. I have answered so many questions and I am so confused I
don't know one thing from another. I am telling you just as nearly as I know.
Q. Calling your attention to what you said about that a few minutes ago, and now again to the
circumstance you have said you were up stairs when the bell rang, and were on the stairs when
Maggie let your father in; which now is your recollection of the true statement of the matter, that
you were down stairs when the bell rang and your father came?
A. I think I was down stairs in the kitchen.
Q. And then you were not up stairs?
A. I think I was not; because I went up almost immediately, as soon as I went down, and then
came down again and stayed down.
Q. What had you in your mind when you said you were on the stairs as Maggie let your father
in?
A. The other day somebody came there and she let them in and I was on the stairs; I don't know
whether the morning before or when it was.
Q. You understood I was asking you exactly and explicitly about this fatal day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I now call your attention to the fact that you had specifically told me you had gone up stairs,
and had been there about five minutes when the bell rang, and were on your way down, and
were on the stairs when Maggie let your father in that day---
A. Yes, I said that, and then I said I did not know whether I was on the stairs or in the kitchen.
Q. Now how will you have it?
A. I think, as nearly as I know, I think I was in the kitchen.

So, if Lizzie's testimony at the Inquest somehow trumps the testimony of both Bridget and Mrs. Churchill, who were consistent on this point from the Witness Statements through the trial, maybe we should re-define the term "reason". They can't all be right.

[Yooper]

Lizzie might have called for Bridget because she herself thought an enemy of her father had come in and stabbed him. She might react instinctively by calling Bridget. Especially if she thought Abbie was out. She might have called out first to Bridget thinking maybe Bridget was out as well. Bridget had said she would have some of that dress goods on sale. Lizzie might have been calling up to see if she was gone or home.
Relying on Bridget doesn't quite sit easy with me because she could very well be part of whatever happened. She had no alibi, as I answered earlier.
Besides, if Bridget answers, Bridget's alive. Just her answering tells Lizzie everything, because she does not suspect her right away, so then she sets things in motion.

If Lizzie thought an intruder was still in the house, does it make more sense to loudly announce the presence of two other potential victims, rather than leave the house? Her father needed immediate medical attention as far as she supposedly knew, and Lizzie's first concern is whether or not Bridget has gone shopping? What exactly would Bridget be able to do if an intruder were present?
Why does Lizzie not suspect Bridget right away? If Bridget did not answer, then Lizzie let an intruder know right where she was.

[Cheryl]

I have trouble imaging Bridget may have been aware of what was going on and therefore may have stayed out of the way.
If she sensed that Lizzie was doing something horrific to Abby, I would imagine she'd take that grand opportunity to get out of the house when Lizzie mentions the sale of dress goods. If she truly had that omen of something horrible, why would she choose to stay and retreat to her bedroom? It just doesn't make sense to me.

I agree with the statements that Lizzie probably had everything washed off/hidden/taken care of when she called for Bridget to get Dr. Bowen. I
could imagine her taking care of little things like running upstairs to open that door to the guest room, perhaps.

[augusta]

I may be thinking of Robinson's closing argument on the morphine issue. I think he mentioned that, for the jury to hear. On the other hand, I do get the dialogue from the movie sometimes mixed up with what was really said. (Sorry - it was a good script. )

I think it's unnatural for Lizzie not to have any blood on her. Doesn't she testify that she didn't see his eyeball hanging out? She didn't get a real good look at him, did she? I'd think she would run to where he was. Maybe not touch him, once she saw how gruesome it was. But at least go to him.

How long was Lizzie alone? I had always thought she would not let Bridget in the sitting room and sent her away so that the killer could escape.