After the trial, what church did Lizzie go to?

[snokkums]

I know before she was accused and tried, Lizzie did go to church and teach Sunday school. I am curious, after the trial, did she ever go to another church. I know she never went back to the church had been going before the trial, because was not welcomed, did she go to another one. I have heard or seen anything. I guess I am under the impression she never stepped foot in any church after the trail.

Am I right.

[Kat]

February 2007 issue of The Hatchet has an article by Denise Noe:
"Denise Noe's Lizzie Whittlings: The Central Congregational Church: Lizzie's Church."

Maybe you should read the magazine for real info?

I have seen it that Lizzie went to church, was shunned and didn't go again. I've seen it where she did go more than we thought. I've seen it where she took a vacation right after the trial and skipped church the first Sunday, but after a time resumed attendance. I have also seen where she kept up with her Christian Endeavor at least for a few more years. These are newspaper stories btw.
So my answer is I don't really know the answer. Maybe you can find out?

[augusta]

After the trial, both Reverends Buck and Jubb dropped Lizzie. At least one of them was with her every day of the trial and also visiting her in her Taunton cell.

Like Kat, I've read in many sources that she did go back to Central Congregational after her acquittal and everyone snubbed her so she never returned.

She did attend another church with friends after that, but I don't know how often.

In the end, she had an Episcopal priest from the Church of the Ascension do her burial. I think she did not go there, but he went to her house for Communion and/or worship.

Her will could give us some clew. Is there a name in there that we can't identify? I would say she definitely would have given some money to the Episcopal church. Maybe she did it before she died and didn't have anything in her will. But I tend to think that some how she did leave them some amount.

I attended a Sunday service there when I was in FR once on a Sunday. It's a traditional Episcopal church.

If you saw Harry's story in The Hatchet a while back, where he found an FBI paper about Lizzie Borden, you'd have read that when she was in the Truesdale Hospital for her gall bladder operation, she had a very long talk with some pastor, whose name was blacked out. I think if we could find out the name of who was pastor at Church of Ascension in 1926, it could give us an interesting piece of information. They may have had two pastors back then.

I wrote them after I attended a service but got no answer. Their church had been going thru the same shrinkage of membership many Episcopal churches have been these last several years - we agree to disagree, which is what I like about being Episcopalian. But when members disagree on a very serious issue, like half the congregation leaves. They did not have a regular priest when I went that one time, and they had no permanent secretary. I don't think they had time to mess with my question.

I did walk all around the church (not realizing someone was waiting to lock up ). I didn't see any list of past priests put up anywhere. I'm sure they have that info in their files, tho.

[Shelley]

Church of the Ascension on Rock Street was the church where Rev. Cleveland was priest who did Lizzie's funeral service. Grace Hartley Howe was an enthusiastic attendee there, and I always thought that is why Lizzie took up the Episcopalians!

[augusta]

Shelley - So a 'Reverand Cleveland' was officiating there then. I never heard or read of that before! You're just a gushing font of data! Thank you! It seems to me I had heard that there were two priests there in 1926, but I may be wrong.

I didn't know Grace Howe went there! Thanks again for another interesting morsel! Maybe that is why Lizzie chose that church.

There are no 'rules' in being an Episcopalian. Just two "musts": love God above everything and everyone and love your neighbor as yourself. I think Lizzie could have handled that.

I have the prayer book for the year Lizzie probably used one. It comes from a relative and is - I wanna say 1896 but I may be wrong. They did redo the Book of Common Prayer (prayer book) in 1928, and now are using the 1976 (I think) edition. I remember the 1928 year one because there was such a fuss from older people refusing to give it up and change to the new one.

The one that was used in Lizzie's time is online. I'll see if I can find it. It would show the burial service used. Seems like there was only one in the prayer book back then. There are two today.

I'll go rummage.

[Shelley]

My church still uses the 1928 Book of Common Prayer and the 1940 hymnal but the church where I work uses the 1982 hymnal and the revised 1979 Book of Common Prayer. I will dig out my Church of the Ascension photos. I am a diocesan altar guild director, so I pass through many churches over the course of a year- and Ascension is a beautiful old Gothic Revival church. I also obtained a photo of Rev. Cleveland and some information about his time there from the church. The lady who played the piano at Lizzie's Maplecroft service was junior organist at Ascension at the time.

[augusta]

I've always wondered what a "bricked grave" meant, since Lizzie had it in her funeral instructions. I came across a definition from the 2007 Bereavement Services, Walsall Council:

"Bricked grave" shall mean a burial space formed in the ground by excavation but with internal brick or stonework."

[augusta]

Shelley - Yes, the 1979 Book of Common Prayer I could not think of that is largely used today. I would have been happy either way. I didn't see anything wrong using the 1928 book, it was so similar. Many said it was too old-fashioned, but what was wrong with that? Sometimes 'old-fashioned' can be more respectful (not saying the 1979 book is not respectful).

I didn't know Lizzie had a service at Maplecroft. I thought she just had a graveside service at Oak Grove?

It's interesting that you know this stuff about Church of the Ascension. Did the junior organist just play while Ms. Turner sang?

I met a lady in FR who knew - is it "Vida"? - Turner and we had an interesting talk! I don't think I could have done it. (Well, for one thing I don't sing ... )

[Shelley]

Yes, Vida Turner was a local soprano church soloist who sang At Hame in My Ain Countrie at Maplecroft, accompanied I believe by Anna Fiore Smith who was the junior organist at Ascension. "Bricked over" was something done before vaults or liners became law. At one time, the deceased was simply put in a shroud or winding cloth, put in a pine coffin and lowered into a fir branch-lined hole in the ground- sometimes ONLY 3 feet deep. In England and even in America, "body-snatchers" or graverobbers routinely dug up people for medical school cadavers, or to rob the body of wealthy deceased who were buried in finery. Bricking over was a deterent. Finally, with the preference (especially in this country) of caskets and lined concrete liner vaults with lids, ther is no need for "bricking over". Sounds like Lizzie was afraid someone would either tamper with her remains, or maybe she just wanted to Rest in Peace! Makes you wonder if something was buried with her- how about a confession! Maybe she did take a secret to the grave! I prattle on about all of this over at the Oak Grove Cemetery blog By the way, the Friends of Oak Grove is coming right along with two new tree donors just last week.

[augusta]

Shelley - I had not heard the phrase "bricked over". That's interesting. Well, I hadn't even heard of a 'bricked grave' until I studied Lizzie.
That is so sickening - grave robbing and body snatching. I don't know how a person could do it.

I wonder how long a plain pine box would take to disintegrate? Abby & Andrew were buried in them. I wonder if the wood is all gone now. I'm gonna vote for "severely decayed".

Wasn't it the law then that each coffin had to have a silver plate on like the side of it with something that would identify the decedent? I've seen plates like that on eBay for sale.

Well, Lizzie knew she was hounded in her life and was probably afraid (and correct) that some idiots would dig her up (I do not refer to Professor Starrs here). It sounds like she gave a lot of jewelry away. She was a practical sort. My gut feeling is she was buried with no jewelry.

Now that's an interesting thought, Shelley! Her buried with a confession! She was to have said in a newspaper that she knew who did it and wanted to stay in FR until the person was unmasked. I have some doubts as to if she said that. But personally I think she knew who did it. Maybe her confession would say that - or more.

[Shelley]

Funeral customs and trivia are a bit of a interest of mine (uh-oh- what does that all mean??) . Came from having a mortician uncle I guess. Starrs showed me the scans he made in 1992 and Andrew's coffin lid has collapsed. Not surprising. Wooden coffins, which were covered with black broadcloth and studded with decorative nailheads, disintegrate quickly when put in a grave with no liner or vault. Actually, that was the idea of "ashes to ashes- dust to dust". I just finished an excellent book on embalming , and before the Civil War, virtually nobody was embalmed. Burial and decomposition was the natural way. By the late 1870's more people were opting for embalming, although it was still not the rage it would become later on.

Depending on the acidy of the soil, moisture, and other factors, wood decomposes at varying rates. Starrs showed the Borden coffin shapes still intact, but I expect the bones within have pretty much decomposed, especially Andrew's with the lid compromised.

Yes, graverobbing was a dreadful thing- much of it performed by doctors who needed cadavers for their medical schools- or else they would go out of business. Poor families would put quick lime in the coffins to render the corpse unusable. Even cemetery design changed to discourage body snatching. A complicated cage over the grave, called a mort-safe discouraged grave robbers.

One fascinating tale about a disinterment had nothing to do with body snatching. Dante Gabriel Rossetti (one of my favorite Pre-Raphaelite painters) married his beautiful model, Elizabeth Lizzie Siddal and used her in many of his most famous works. He was besotted with her. He was also a poet and penned a volume of poems to Lizzie Siddal. She died tragically. She overdosed on Laudanum and died on February 11, 1862. After she passed away and was buried at Highgate Cemetery in London with the only copy of those love poems. After some time passed, Rossetti needed fast cash. He recalled the poems in the coffin, and by the light of the moon, had Lizzie dug up in 1869. Her long flowing hair nearly filled the coffin. He was too chicken to go to the cemetery himself, but - he got back the poems to publish. Nice guy. His philandering with women and fondness for whiskey had driven the poor thing to despair. I was glad the volume of stolen poems was a flop! Naturally, the first thing I did when I went to HIghgate was to beg a guide to take me off the beaten tour to see Lizzie Siddal! Oh, those Victorians- the drama! And yes, Lizzie has her fans and her own website at http://lizziesiddal.com/portal/?page_id=30
Was it murder? http://lizziesiddal.com/portal/?p=114 or was it suicide, or was it just an accidental overdose? Another mystery for us.

Lizzie Siddal

[Tina-Kate]

Oooh, Shelley...I love Rossetti. Last time I was in London I visited the Tate Gallery & saw lots of his work "in the flesh". Also bought a book while I was there on the Pre-Rafaelites. Thanks for sharing the picture.

[Shelley]

The Fogg in Boston (in Hahvahd-Yahd) has a stupendous collection of the Pre-Raphs, including Rossetti. My all-time favorite Rossetti is The Blessed Damozel, both a poem and a painting.
Actually, when people hear Len Rebello and I are old chums , they assume we chat Lizzie non-stop but we both love Victorian artists, Pre-Raphaelites in particular, so that, and Victorian furnishings and antiques are our favorite topics. Len is a real Renaissance man.

Fall River has MANY well-known artists, and Mary Macomber was a particularly gifted Pre-Raphaelite American woman artist. Len and I have presented lectures at the FR Public Library and also Belmont Public Library on Macomber, who for a time lived in NY, Belmont, Ma. and of course, Fall River. She was in Lizzie's class at Fall River High School.
Here is her Fair Rosamond


and Rossetti's Blessed Damozel

[Tina-Kate]

Wow---the Lizzie-related commonalities & coincidences seem endless.

And now I have a new must-see if I ever get to Boston!

Thanks again, Shelley!

[Shelley]

Well stop off in Fall River first because Mary Macomber's paintings are hanging in the Fall River Public Library. Her women were so feminine. Some of Rossetti's bushy-headed, full-lipped gals looked a little unnatural. At the Library is one called "Marconi" which was inspired by the sinking of the Titanic. It is a large canvas hanging in the atrium upstairs -and it always gives me the chills! Macomber had a very intriguing private life full of mysteries. She only painted women-and her angels are amazing.

I should qualify- Mary Lizzie Macomber was born in 1861, so I should properly say that she and Lizzie were at the Fall River High School at the same time- Mary Lizzie may have been in some of the same classes as Lizzie B.

[augusta]

Wow - so the coffin wood did decay. That gives me a scary, but interesting, visual. It's incredible all the stuff you've done, Shelley. Your posts are quite valuable.

Professor Starrs let you see his images???!!! You lucky girl, you. He was pretty bitter over his Fall River/Borden attempts of axhumation (that was a typo, honest!). He said he'd never go back there.

I did notice the lovely paintings in the FR library. I wish I would have known about the "Marconi" one. I have been a Titanic student for years. Thanks for posting the ones you did. They are gorgeous.

The story about the wife and the poetry book was good! Her husband must have been pretty destitute to have to have done that. I say that because if he loved her that much to write that book of poetry in the first place, and initially decided to have it buried with her, it would seem as if he had no ill intentions in mind. Just a thought. Thanks for the links!

I am in love with things Victorian, too. I wasn't until I started studying the Borden case. Then there'd be something I didn't know what it was, and I'd research it and would find a picture and an explanation (Susan is real good at that on here). Such a different life then. Shelley, do you ever wish you were born back then? Or would you rather just be transported back there for a day or so?

[Shelley]

If a time machine landed on my front yard, I would get in, take my dog and not look back. I would probably leave a note for the kids (aged 28 and 33)-who would understand perfectly. The year I would go back to- ?- 1880, then I would be alive to see everything which interests me most. This is not a new affliction- I've been a hopeless Victorian since about age 12 and have romped around in long dresses forever. I was raised by Victorian grandparents in a rambling 1880's house-must have rubbed off.

[Nadzieja]

Ok Shelley, Now (and not for the first time) you've mentioned something I'm very curious about. I always wondered---why would this even interest me, but it does. What was the book that you read about embalming? The history of these customs is really fascinating, and not in a morbid way, just an historical one. Also I didn't realize there was a real effort to exhume these bodies. Poor Andrew not only was he murdered, he almost got exhumed. I can't imagine what he would think if he knew what almost happened. What in the world would you even scan these graves with, I don't recall ever hearing of such a technique. What were the pictures like?

[Shelley]

This was an amazing account of the history of embalming. I especially liked the long accounts of the funerals of Lincoln and Jefferson Davis. This is easy to find on Ebay and Amazon.

About the embalming book
Title: Coffins, Kits and More: Stories of the Civil War Embalmer
Author: Lee Ward
Forward by Melissa Johnson Williams
Publisher: Two Trails Publishing Independence Missouri
Copyright Date: 2007
ISBN 1-929311-96-6
Signed by the author, Lee Ward
Soft Cover
163 pages"

"This unique book is full of Historical information relating to traditional funeral practices and embalming, specifically adressing the history of embalming in the United States which gained it's popularity during the Civil War.
Includes interesting information about types of caskets used during the civil war.
Quotations from eyewitnesses to the events described.
Details noted from historical records, literature, letters and diaries.
Includes names and biographies of the leading men in the embalming industry. It explains the problems that arose during the Battle of Gettysburg.
Contains details of President Lincoln's assasination, autopsy, embalming, funeral procession and burial.
Contains details of the Confederate President Jefferson Davis's death, embalming, funeral procession and burials.
Includes multiple photographs and pictures from the authors own collection, Library of Congress, the Musuem of Funeral Customs and many other sources.
Includes Post Mortem photos and medical type photos of embalming procedures.

Ground penetrating radar is not a new tool. Anything beneath the soil shows up as an outline or dark shape. You can actually see the two coffins at a certain depth, and the two smaller containers higher up which are no doubt holding the heads of poor Abby and Andrew. I had a lot of time to kill in a green room once, with Dr. Starrs, so we gabbed. He is actually a really nice man, and was to be a keynote speaker on this technique at the aborted conference. I have enjoyed some fascinating gabfests on the phone with him at his lab in D.C. He just retired recently. Here is more on GPR:
"Ground Penetrating Radar (GPR) is an ultra-wideband imaging technique used for subsurface exploration and monitoring. It is widely used for locating utility lines; monitoring pavement, runways, and walls for soundness and thickness; search and rescue; archaeological exploration; forensic examinations; mining; ice sounding; detecting unexploded land mines and bombs; agricultural applications; groundwater studies; permafrost, void, cave and tunnel detection; location of sinkholes, karst, subsidence areas; and many other similar applications.

The beauty of GPR is that it is non-invasive, relatively inexpensive, and can be used in a variety of ways -- there are hand-held units, downhole units, units that can be dragged behind vehicles, and even used from aircraft and satellite. It has the highest resolution of any subsurface imaging method (sometimes with resolutions of one centimeter), and is far safer than x-ray technology. "

[Harry]

Stefani, through the Mondo Lizzie site posted a short (1:12) video to YouTube in November 2006 which showed Prof. Starrs in action.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gqllKMkEt1g

I have no problem with that but would be 100% opposed to any digging in the graves. Let them rest in peace.

[augusta]

The device Professor Starrs used looked much like a metal detector. The story went country-wide the year it happened. He would have been a really good person to hear lecture, that's for sure.

Shelley, thanks for posting the link to the embalming book. I will get one.

Harry, I have to agree with you on not exhuming the Borden graves. But if they could solve the crime by doing so ... I'm glad I would not be the one deciding.

I don't think exhuming the couple would have been the last of it, if Prof. Starrs did do it. If his examination proved "inconclusive", another person with another theory would then want to do it.

So his equipment showed both coffins + 2 smaller, probable head, boxes?! Why didn't he publish those, I wonder. Shelley, you were lucky to have been able to see those.

Please give to the Edmund Porter grave marker fund.

[Tina-Kate]

Thanks for the link, Harry.

Interesting in the Did She Do it Poll, only 56% said Yes, with 44% saying No. It seems the more people actually study the case, those Yes numbers go up.

[Kat]

Here are my drawings I posted August, 2006, from the news coverage of Prof. Starrs using a ground penetrating device. We had been talking about which direction the bodies lay in their graves, so they weren't stepped on by us in future..

[Kat]

And about the skulls:

Herald News, Feb. 1992:
"Early results indicate two levels of burial"

"...Stan Smith of Geophysical Survey Systems reported after two hours of testing that the gravesite was disturbed twice, once when the murder victims were buried, and a second time, perhaps, when the skulls were buried with the bodies. The subsurface radar, which penetrated about 10 feet, showed two 'targets' in each grave, the coffins and something buried only about 2 feet below ground, said Smith."

[bob_m_ryan]

Wow! Thanks, Kat. So, someone could potentially dig the skulls up quickly if they knew where they were located. To dig two feet would not take long.

[Tina-Kate]

Gosh, if the skulls are only two feet under---doesn't that sound like a really slipshod job? There was not an enormous time difference they were separated from the bodies (approx 1 year), so one would think an effort would have been made to exhume the coffins & place the skulls inside.

It just sounds horribly disrespectful if this is true...

[Shelley]

Dr. Starrs estimated between 2 1/2-3 feet. Actually, I was told closer to 3 feet. Either they did not want to dig down that far or felt it was more disrespectful to reopen the coffins and re-attach the heads (ugh- what a grisly thought). Yes, there has been concern that some weirdos might try to dig the little boxes up which is one reason why Dr. Starrs has never published any scans in magazines, newspapers, etc.

[snokkums]

I think that it would have been the decent thing to do -- put the heads back with the bodies. I know it might sound alittle gross, but I think I would want my parents' body all in one place. But, that's just me.

[bob_m_ryan]

Do we know if Andrew and Abby's graves were 'bricked' over? If so, that might explain why the skulls were not reunited with the bodies. It would be a lot of work to unbrick a grave after burial. The hole would have to be quite a bit bigger than the bricked over coffins to gain access.

That said, if the ground radar was able to determine that the lid to Andrew's coffin had collapsed, my guess would be that the graves were not bricked over.

[snokkums]

I never thought about that. It would take alot of work to unbrick something. Good point, Bob.

[Shelley]

The graves of Andrew and Abby are not bricked over .

[Harry]

The FR Globe of the 6th had a little on the graves.

".... The new graves to receive the bodies of the murdered couple were sunk in the sward on the northern side of the plot, adjoining the graves of the first wife Sarah and his daughter Alice. Every detail of the funeral was neatly prepared and about the edges of the graves boughs of hemlock were laid, the inner walls being covered with white cloth. ...... The two coffins were borne from the hearse and laid side by side upon the supports over the grave. The services were plain and solemn. Dr. Adams offered the prayer, in which he called upon guidance of the Almighty in the search for the assassin and that a just retribution might be meted out to the offender. Benediction and words of committal were pronounced by the Rev. E. A. Buck and the ceremony was at an end. The carriages drove off and the coffins were again placed in the hearses and conveyed to the vault just inside the main gate in the southwesterly corner. The order for the bodies to be placed in the tomb came from Medical Examiner Dolan this morning. ...."