Did the Borden home have a telephone?

[kssunflower]

I'm guessing no, since Andrew was so frugal. Was just curious who made the 11:15 call to the FRPD?

[doug65oh]

The telephone call was made by Mr. John Cunningham, the news dealer. If you have the Trial transcript pdf files it's in the first one, about page 421 that testimony on the call begins. If you start at pg. 419 though, with the opening of Cunningham's direct testimony you should be able to find it.

[mbhenty]

No, Andrew Borden did not have a telephone.

Lizzie did had a telephone at Maplecroft, though.......

I have a 1926 phone book which lists Lizzie's four digit Telephone number.

[shakiboo]

Oh wow, that's cool! Mind if I ask what her number was?

[kssunflower]

That's interesting.....I wonder if back then there was the option having an unpublished number. It seems Lizzie wouldn't want her number made public.

[mbhenty]

Lizzie's Telephone number in 1926 was "378". But listen, you didn't hear it from me. If she knew I was giving it out she would flip

[diana]

Lizzie's Telephone number in 1926 was "378". But listen, you didn't hear it from me. If she knew I was giving it out she would flip

Is that why you're keeping the fourth digit secret?

[mbhenty]

Yes DIANA:


Nope, that was just me, Mr. know-it-all. From memory I thought it was four but it's just 3.

There is one fellow in that directory who lives one town over in Assonet. His name is Charles Briggs, Physician and his telephone number is "1".

[Stefani]

Mbhenty, here are the images in question.

[Harry]

There is one fellow in that directory who lives one town over in Assonet. His name is Charles Briggs, Physician and his telephone number is "1".

I wonder if the numbers were issued in the order that the person or company got their phone. Lizzie's number was much lower than her rich relative Jerome C.'s #2070.

[shakiboo]

Thanks MB, don't worry I won't calll her, be just my luck someone would answer! Thanks Stefani, for the pictures! I was wondering the same thing Harry, if so she had to have been one of the first to get a telephone. Wonder if Emma ever did? There really were alot of Borden's!!

[snokkums]

I have a question about the phone call. The question is this I was reading the trial of Lizzie Borden by Edmund Pearson, on page 165. and it says that Cunningham found out about the maurder as the result of Mrs. Churchill's visit to the stable and that he teleponed the City Marshells office. He noticed a clock nearby: it said 10:50. Like a number of clocks, it was wrong. The correct time was 11:15.

I thought that Andrew was killed at 11:00a.m. I thought , too, that Mrs. Churchill was with Lizzie. I guess what I am getting at is this: how close are the stables to lizzie house? I mean if Andrew was killed at 11am and the phone call was made at 11:15 -- that was kind of quick to me. If the phone was in the house I could understand, but she must have run to the stables as did Mr. Cunningham .

[snokkums]

Oh forgot another question-- where was the phone? In the stable? where?

Sorry should have but this with the last post-- oops.

[Harry]

Cunningham testified at the trial, p421, about where he made the call.

"Q. In consequence of learning that what did you do, or after learning it what did you do?
A. There is a paint shop on the corner of Borden and Second Streets, that is Mr. Gorman's paint shop. I went in there and asked for the use of his telephone.
Q. Did you telephone?
A. To the city marshal."

Cunningham gave as his reason for being on Second St. that he was collecting for the papers:

"A. Well, my business was collecting money for newspapers.
Q. And how much did you collect?
A. Twelve cents.
Q. Just the weekly payment?
A. Yes, sir."

Don't we all pay 12 cents a week?

[doug65oh]

Harry. Newspapers were fairly reasonably priced in those days huh? Funny thing is, they were still reasonable some fifty years later. The other week I happened across an online archive of the Fitchburg Sentinel. The price of that newspaper (published six days a week) was three cents per daily issue - that was in late 1942.

[mbhenty]

During the 1890s telephones were undergoing countless changes, that is, as one technology was being developed and installed, it was soon replaced by a newer, better system; not unlike the changes it has undergone the past 15 years.

In the early 1890s the "Automatic Telephone Office" was just over the horizon. It did not come into it's own till well into the early 1900s. The "Automatic System" eliminated the operator and introduced the "dial" telephone.

So, in the 1890s there was two basic systems in use in the country. Not sure which was used in Fall River in 1892, but it was probably what they called a "Wet Cell System".

This meant that a small battery, similar to the one in your car, sat in a box by the phone to power the call. The phone was a crank magneto type. You would crank the handle which would ring a bell at the office where an operator would answer.

The newer type in 1890s was the "Common Battery System". In this case the battery to run the line was in the Central Office at the phone company and all one needed do was lift the receiver, "Go Off Hook" and it would ring the operator. No more cranking. But, this type of system was very new in 1892.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Which ever system Cunningham used, he had to have an operator connect him. The operator had to go in on the line every once in a while to check if the call was over so she could disconnect it. Very basic.

One can only speculate...............,but listening to Cunningham's phone call that day, especially if he sounded alarmed, asking to be connected to the police station, one can imagine the operator listening on. If so, boy.....what she could have heard?

[Harry]

The 12 cents may not be so small as it sounds. Using the inflation calculator it has a current value of $2.60.

I don't think they published on Sundays so it's reasonably close to todays prices.

[snokkums]

Thanks Harry. I wasn't sure where he had made the phone call. Didn't make sense to have a phone at the stables; but, I am a city girl too.

Thanks again Harry.

[keim]

Hello, Lizzie?
Is your new Frigidaire running?
Well, you better catch it!

[chuckciao]

I have a question about the phone call. The question is this I was reading the trial of Lizzie Borden by Edmund Pearson, on page 165. and it says that Cunningham found out about the maurder as the result of Mrs. Churchill's visit to the stable and that he teleponed the City Marshells office. He noticed a clock nearby: it said 10:50. Like a number of clocks, it was wrong. The correct time was 11:15.

I thought that Andrew was killed at 11:00a.m. I thought , too, that Mrs. Churchill was with Lizzie. I guess what I am getting at is this: how close are the stables to lizzie house? I mean if Andrew was killed at 11am and the phone call was made at 11:15 -- that was kind of quick to me. If the phone was in the house I could understand, but she must have run to the stables as did Mr. Cunningham .

Snokkums,
You are bring up some good points! I have always pondered these timing issues with great interest. Considering all that took place just after Lizzie called out to Bridget, i.e. Bridget going over to Dr. Bowen's, Bridget returning to Lizzie, Bridget going for Alice Russel, Mrs. Churchill rushing over to Lizzie and then rushing to the stables to inform Mr. Cunningham, etc., and the times involved in all of these actions, I am led to believe that the murder of Andrew took place earlier than 11AM. I would love to have others opinions of this.

[mbhenty]

If One left the Borden house at 92, ran out the side door in a trot or run to Hall's Stables or Gorman's Paint store it would take less than 60 seconds.

By the time Churchill arrived at Hall's, and Cunningham scurried over to Gorman's and made the call, could have all been done in 10 minutes; that is, between the time the police station received the call and the actual discovery of Andrews body by Lizzie. (that is, if Lizzie told the truth)

The distance between the Borden House and Gorman's Paint Store can not be more than 600 feet or so. Less than a block.

[chuckciao]

If One left the Borden house at 92, ran out the side door in a trot or run to Hall's Stables or Gorman's Paint store it would take less than 60 seconds.

By the time Churchill arrived at Hall's, and Cunningham scurried over to Gorman's and made the call, could have all been done in 10 minutes; that is, between the time the police station received the call and the actual discovery of Andrews body by Lizzie. (that is, if Lizzie told the truth)

The distance between the Borden House and Gorman's Paint Store can not be more than 600 feet or so. Less than a block.

Thanks mbhenty,
It's great to have some real life details about distances, timings, etc. which are hard to decipher from books, etc.

[mbhenty]

Yes, Chuckciao:

It probably took much longer than I said.

Let us say the murder just happened.

There must have been a minimum of 10 minutes, or so, between the time Lizzie found Andrew and called out for Bridget.

Let us say another 5 or 10 minutes to get Mrs Churchill's attention, while the maid ran for the doctor etc., and for Mrs Churchill to jump into action.

Another 5 minutes for the call to be made by Cunningham to the police. (He probably called the newspapers first which would take another 5 to 10 minutes.)

So, we may be looking at as little as 15 minutes or as much as 25 between the time Lizzie sounded the alarm and the police received the call. No?

But, the distance between Halls Stable and the Borden house was very small, and the paint store I believe was next door to the Stable.

[Kat]

Hello, Lizzie?
Is your new Frigidaire running?
Well, you better catch it!

I bet kids did that!!

[Kat]

There must have been a minimum of 10 minutes, or so, between the time Lizzie found Andrew and called out for Bridget.

--MB, partial

Why? I don't understand. Do you mean between the time she killed him and called out to Bridget? Otherwise, she called out as soon as she found him?

The place near the paint shop was the Express barn, where Mark Chase was. The *stable* was also across the street but closer to Mrs. Churchill's, on the other side of Dr. Bowen's place.

[nbcatlover]

Amen. The crime has been solved! John Cunningham must be the killer--he reported the crime before anyone knew it had happened. Andrew filched a newspaper and Cunningham sought revenge.

I knew there was some reason those stories about Lizzie addressing newpaper wrappers (?) for Abby were told.

Where did that story originate?

[mbhenty]

Yes KAT:


Ten minutes being an estimate. It could have been one minute.

If she did it where is the ax? She would need time to hide it or clean blood? Even 10 minutes would not be enough for that. If there was a killer she would give him at least 5 minutes time to get away? (this of course is based on the assumption that she was aware or did the murders)

From the time Borden actually got hit by the ax and the time Lizzie called out for Bridget some time must have elapse, 10 minutes is just a working estimate I pulled out of my hat for the sake of argument.

[Kat]

There must have been a minimum of 10 minutes, or so, between the time Lizzie found Andrew and called out for Bridget.

--MB, partial.

I mean, if she *found* Andrew than she didn't do it and called out right away. If she killed him then she would need 10 minutes to get ready to call out. That's what is meant, yes?

[mbhenty]

Yes Kat:

In arriving at my 10 minute timeline I am assuming Lizzie is Guilty to some capacity. Thus, if she had someone do it, right after the deed was done she would have given the killer a little time to get away.

[Kat]

I knew there was some reason those stories about Lizzie addressing newpaper wrappers (?) for Abby were told.
Where did that story originate?

--partial

Inquest
Lizzie
67/24
Q. After your father went out, you remained there either in the kitchen or dining room all the time?
A. I went in the sitting room long enough to direct some paper wrappers.
...
80/37
Q. Miss Borden, I want you now to tell me all the talk you had with your mother, when you came down, and all the talk she had with you. Please begin again.
A. She asked me how I felt. I told her. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her not anything, what kind of meat I wanted for dinner. I told her not any. She said she had been up and made the spare bed, and was going to take up some linen pillow cases for the small pillows at the foot, and then the room was done. She says: "I have had a note from somebody that is sick, and I am going out, and I will get the din- [sic] at the same time." I think she said something about the weather, I don't know. She also asked me if I would direct some paper wrappers for her, which I did.

[chuckciao]

I knew there was some reason those stories about Lizzie addressing newpaper wrappers (?) for Abby were told.
Where did that story originate?

--partial

Inquest
Lizzie
67/24
Q. After your father went out, you remained there either in the kitchen or dining room all the time?
A. I went in the sitting room long enough to direct some paper wrappers.
...
80/37
Q. Miss Borden, I want you now to tell me all the talk you had with your mother, when you came down, and all the talk she had with you. Please begin again.
A. She asked me how I felt. I told her. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her not anything, what kind of meat I wanted for dinner. I told her not any. She said she had been up and made the spare bed, and was going to take up some linen pillow cases for the small pillows at the foot, and then the room was done. She says: "I have had a note from somebody that is sick, and I am going out, and I will get the din- [sic] at the same time." I think she said something about the weather, I don't know. She also asked me if I would direct some paper wrappers for her, which I did.

Kat, could you please illuminate me about these wrappers. Although I had read about them before, not much is really said about them. Were these found? Who were they adressed to?
Thanks

[Kat]

I don't know. We have discussed it before, tho - there's probably a thread. It was supposed these were for mailing something, or for the mail person to deliver the newspaper? Apparently one could pre-address newspaper wrappers and hand them over to the PO and that would get your paper delivered.
I'm not sure I'm remembering this correctly, sorry.
I was only showing Cynthia where the wrappers *originated.*

Anyone else know?

[diana]

It seems to me we pretty much accepted the "paper wrappers" were self-addressed wrappers for newspaper delivery. But offhand I can't remember a source other than Lincoln. I hope she's not the only one!!

Anyway, here she is ---

"We do know why there were mailing wrappers in his house. The family subscribed to the Providence Journal, a solid, conservative, well-written sheet, to which my own family also subscribed. To insure its proper delivery, it came in a wrapper bearing the subscriber's address. This wrapping, if done by the dealer, cost extra. The thrifty method was to supply the newsdealer with wrappers that one had preaddressed.

This Lizzie did for her father; she was justly proud of her handwriting, for every scrap of it that has been saved is as bland, inhuman, and void of character as the sample lines that used to be printed at the top of the old Palmer-method copy books."
--A Private Disgrace: Lincoln, p. 126.

[Kat]

Gee! Lincoln huh? We should find that original thread. I know I never named her as a source! We were throwing things into the pot and trying to reason it out as I recall...

[Kat]

I've got a link for a topic on wrappers, but the emphasis is on whether the front door had been opened that Thursday morning:

viewtopic.php?t=476

[chuckciao]

I've got a link for a topic on wrappers, but the emphasis is on whether the front door had been opened that Thursday morning:

viewtopic.php?t=476

Thanks for the interesting thread. In reading it, I remembered the broken lock that Andrew picked up on his rounds that AM. Was the lock ever found in the house? I thought that I had read that it was found on the mantel but I could be mistaken.

[diana]

Thanks for the interesting thread. In reading it, I remembered the broken lock that Andrew picked up on his rounds that AM. Was the lock ever found in the house? I thought that I had read that it was found on the mantel but I could be mistaken.

Again, a Lincolnism -- and what her source is for this, I don't know.

"In connection with all this paper-burning, it is well to mention here that the broken lock that Andrew had picked up from Mr. Clegg's floor and dropped in his pocket was found on the mantel. It had been rolled in an unaddressed white mailing wrapper like those that lay in a stack, the top few addressed to Andrew, on a small table in the sitting room." (Lincoln, 126)

[Kat]

Oh My Gosh! That's weird you guys!

I recall we discussed the fact that Andrew picked up a lock, but we used testimony that showed it was probably Andrew's own lock. It was from his store that he was renting to Clegg.
I think we talked about Clegg as a new tenant possibly needing a new lock- and the old one might still be in usable shape, and Andrew might have wanted to compare his keys to it...

The old myths about Andrew made him out a miser and stingy to the point of collecting old broken locks and carrying them home like a magpie.

[Harry]

There's no testimony or newspaper account about a lock being on the mantel in a wrapper. As Diana says it's a Lincoln-ism. It's nowhere else but in Lincoln.

There was no lock found in Andrew's coat or pockets.

Perhaps he looked it over more carefully on his trip home and decided to toss it away. Shortsleeve's testimony at the Trial (p177+) says the lock was in pieces. Later he just refers to it as the lock.

Mather at the Preliminary (p234) describes it more fully:

"Q. You say he went to the window, and took something?
A. And old lock that was there, an old store lock.
Q. Was it an iron lock?
A. A Yale lock.
Q. Brass?
A. A brass bolt and brass springs inside.
Q. Did he wrap it up in anything?
A. No Sir, took it in his hands.
Q. Did he have anythingelse in his hand that you noticed at the time?
A. I did not notice.
Q. Did he carry that away with him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he have it in his hand when you last saw him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He went in the direction of Spring street?
A. Yes Sir."

Andrew was seen coming from around the north side of the house by Mrs. Dr. Kelly. Maybe he made a quick trip to the side door of the barn and tossed it inside. The barn door was unlocked and had only a hasp and it was a short distance from the rear steps. Would that even take a minute?

There is no mention by either Mather or Shortsleeves or anyone else for that matter who encountered Andrew that morning about a small white package which I believe Mrs. Kelly and Bridget testified that he had in his hand when he came home. That like the lock simply vanishes. was the lock in the package? If he wrapped it, when? Would he bother wrapping it for just a short walk to his house?

[Yooper]

Andrew might wrap the lock in paper if there were loose parts with it, small parts such as screws or springs, or if he thought they might fall out of the lock on the way home. A paper wrapped lock would only be a consideration while he was carrying it home, people would notice him carrying a "small, white package". Once he got home with it and set it down somewhere, it ceased to be a consideration. An old lock, even if wrapped in paper laying on a table or shelf might not be given any more thought than a stick of firewood.

[shakiboo]

What if Andrew had wrapped the lock and it's parts in a white hankerchief to keep them all together? From a distance it might appear to be a small white package.

[mbhenty]

.



Ok, my apology, but I have done my best to be a good boy.


After years of study I have arrived at a conclusion. Using Victoria Lincoln for reference is as credible as using Arnold Brown, Spiering...................., or Steven King. (Well, maybe Steven King is going a bit far?)

If you are very versed on the Borden case, once you read A PRIVATE DISGRACE you discover that Vicky was not working BY DAYLIGHT.

She's a novelist, a writer of fantasy and fiction.

She had a whole host of fiction written by then. I don't trust any new information uncovered by Victoria. She was a sensationalist. I don't believe she knew how to write any other way. Any rumor or street gossip she heard when she lived in Fall River became the truth to her, or if not, she spun it that way.

She "assumes and concludes" then "embellishes and enhances" giving her scenario and making it sound like truth. And since she is from Fall River, she carries herself with a confidence that is believable, even to herself.

Sorry Vicky, I don't believe you.

[Harry]

Partial quote:

If you are very versed on the Borden case, once you read A PRIVATE DISGRACE you discover that Vicky was not working BY DAYLIGHT..

Love that one!

[mbhenty]

Thank HARRY:

Victoria Lincoln's book was very successful. It was one of the few if not the only Lizzie title to make it to the "Book Club" circuit.

I love cover art and the British "cover" version of A Private Disgrace is one of my best.

[mbhenty]

Love the guy on the horse in the painting on the wall off Lizzie's right shoulder. (in the post above)

[Smudgeman]

I guess we will never know if Andrew did have a lock on him, but what if that was "part" of Lizzie's fury? Maybe she knew he was planning to change the locks on the front or back door, to the barn, or any door in that house that would limit one's access. She could have taken it from him and made it dissapear just like the hatchet. Maybe Abby told him that "they" had taken her key, and he wanted to change the locks because of that? The locks and keys play an interesting role in this mystery! I love that picture mbhenty!

[darthvader]

Mbhenty, here are the images in question.

That is without question, one of the coolest things I have seen in a while.

[Kat]

Mbhenty, here are the images in question.

Do you mean these?

[darthvader]

Yes, Kat that Phone Directory is pure gold! Gold, Kat, gold!