LIzzie not fond of Abby because of Emma?

[snokkums]

I was reading on the website "Dead Men do tell tales" and it got me to thinking. Here's the part that got me to thinking,

"Lizzie came downstairs. She told her father that "Mrs. Borden had gone out, she had a note from someone who was sick". Lizzie and Emma always called their step mother "Mrs. Borden: and recently, the relationship between them, especially Lizzie, was strained.

I got to thinking when I read this passage. Lizzie's mother died when she was about two. She only knew her mother thru what Emma told her.

Is it possible that reason Lizzie didn't like Abby was because of Emma? What I am saying is that for the longest time, Emma was the chief cook and bottle washer. Emma had to take care of the house hold, including Lizzie. Maybe she felt upsurped by Abby when her father married her, and she passed that hatred onto Lizzie.
I mean it could have happened like. Just curious.

[SallyG]

I've long thought that Emma, and not so much Lizzie, was the real problem. Emma was 14 when Andrew married...just the right age to be a real troublemaker. If she had been taking care of the house prior to Abby coming on the scene, she probably felt extremely jealous.

Anyone know if Andrew employed a housekeeper, or did the extended family look after the girls when he was at work?

What makes me feel that Emma caused problems is the fact that she was sent off to school for awhile. As thrifty as Andrew was, I can't see him laying out money to send Emma off to school when there was a perfectly good public education to be had....free! Abby may have pressed Andrew to send her off for a bit, so she could take her place in the house and bond with Lizzie. That would have rankled Emma even more.

Abby probably figured Emma would get married at some point and leave. Unfortunately, she didn't. She was probably wise enough to be civil to Abby, but I'm sure she filled Lizzies head full of all kinds of unpleasantries concerning Abby.

[twinsrwe]

Very good points, Sally. I agree with all that you posted.

I have always thought that Emma was the real problem and that she was a huge influence in how Lizzie felt toward Abby. Emma promised her dying mother that she would take care of and watch over 'baby Lizzie'. I believe Emma felt that Abby was horning in on what she considered her responsibly of taking care of 'baby Lizzie'. Then there was Lizzie who looked up to and saw Emma as a mother figure and therefore took everything Emma did and said as being 'the right thing' to do and say.

It would not surprise me if Emma was the one who was behind the Borden murders, that is she planted the idea of murdering both Abby and Andrew in Lizzie's head.

[Kat]

This has always been interesting to me- what Hiram Harrington had to say at the inquest, about how things had started out in the re- marriage:
(135)
Q. When she [Lizzie] spoke about it last Winter, what did she say about it?
A. I dont know as I could tell any more than to speak kind of sneeringly of Mrs. Borden. She always called her Mrs. Borden or Mrs. B. I dont know as I could remember anything to put together to make any sense.
Q. Did she speak in an unfriendly way of her?
A. Unfriendly, yes.
Q. You never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about it at all?
A. Never mention it. I have heard my wife say that Abby never mentioned it.
Q. But it was understood there was trouble in the family?
A. O, yes there has been I guess. For several years, I guess, of his early marriage with her, everything was very, very pleasant, uncommonly so for a step mother.
Q. This trouble is of recent years?
A. Quite a number of years, I should think. They were rather reticent about telling these affairs, although sometimes it would crop out.

Sarah Borden had a step-mother.
Abbie Borden had a step-mother.
Andrew Borden had a step-mother, as did, of course, his sister Lurana Harrington.
Emma and Lizzie had a step-mother.

[Bob Gutowski]

Emma the problem? Well, that's the premise of my one-act play which may turn into an opera libretto (it's unfinished).

[snokkums]

I'd like to see that one act play which may turn into an opera Bob when you finish it. Bet it will so cool to watch.

[Susan]

I find it interesting how Hiram answers this question:

Q. This trouble is of recent years?
A. Quite a number of years, I should think. They were rather reticent about telling these affairs, although sometimes it would crop out.

Andrew purchased the half house in Abby's name in May of 1887, 5 years ago from when they spoke to Hiram. He recalls the problems started quite a number of years back. Could 5 years be considered quite a few years, or would it be more like just a few years? Could he mean that there were other issues at work longer before the half house fiasco came about? Did other things crop up say like 8 years back or even 10 years back, thats quite a number years back.

And the part about them "telling these affairs" is plural, how many other affairs were going on that we didn't get to hear about? Yes, there was the house robbery, which according to Lizzie they were forbidden to speak about, but, was that something that would have caused a rift between Lizzie and her relationship with Abby? Maybe between Abby and Lizzie if Abby suspected her at all. So, that one may not have counted in Hiram's tally of affairs. What else could have been going on?

And interesting to note that when Hiram was questioned about what Lizzie had said last winter, he mentions that Lizzie had not been to see him all summer though Emma continued to visit. Kind of makes me wonder if Lizzie cut her acquaintance with Hiram as Hiram had with Andrew?

[Allen]

Trial testimony of Augusta D. Tripp page 143:

Q. What can you tell us about the relations between Lizzie and her mother, so far as you observed it, and heard from Lizzie?
A. All I can tell you is that I don't think they were very agreeable to each other.

Q. What made you think so?
A. I have seen them together very little. What should make me think so, would be --- if I were there, why, they did not sit down, perhaps, and talk with each other as a mother and daughter might. They were very quiet.

Q. That is, they were together so little that you observed the fact?
A. No, I don't think I should, they were around in the same room together, the dining room.

Q. They associated together so little you noticed the fact they did not associate together?
A. I noticed it; not that they kept away from each other, not that at all, but that they did not enter into conversation, perhaps, with each other, perhaps.

Q. Was that so with Lizzie as well as Emma, or with one daughter more than the other?
A. I think Lizzie talked with her mother more than Emma.

Q. Emma had less to say to her?
A. Yes sir.

Q. What else did you notice that led you to think that Lizzie and the mother did not get along well together, or were not agreeable to each other, as you expressed it?
A. I don't know of anything, I can't recollect anything.

Q. What you noticed was their manner towards each other?
A. Yes sir.

Q. That is all, not from any words?
A. Their manner towards each other was not that of those persons that are agreeable to each other, or it did not seem to be.

Q. When was that you have seen them together?
A. I could not tell you surely; it is as much as five years since I have Mrs. Borden at all.

Q. So all this is based on what was quite awhile ago?
A. O, yes sir.

[Kat]

Hiram
inquest
partial
Q. Did she [Lizzie] speak in an unfriendly way of her [Abbie]?
A. Unfriendly, yes.
Q. You never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about it at all?
A. Never mention it. I have heard my wife say that Abby never mentioned it.
Q. But it was understood there was trouble in the family?
A. O, yes there has been I guess. ...

Here's a question: If Abbie did not speak of it to Lurana, how did Hiram know of the troubles in the family, as it's been my impression he had not seen Lizzie in a while and he himself was on the outs with Andrew? Maybe Emma talked about it on those visits to Lurana?

[Susan]

I would say, yes, that it would have to be Emma who supplied any recent information of troubles in the Borden household. Unless Hiram is referring to whatever issues Lizzie had spoken about the last time she visited. Do you think that Andrew ever confided in Lurana about family issues? Could he have then been a source for information that Lurana then repeated to Hiram?

[Kat]

Well, Lurana was sick a lot for a long time. She even had surgeries. I have no idea how much she saw her brother, Andrew. If she asked Andrew about his homelife, I think he might tell her. If she didn't ask him, somehow I don't see them talking about it.
I think it might be Emma. If Emma hated Abbie and visited Lurana a lot, maybe they gossiped about Abbie and maybe Emma would get it out of her system to her. I wonder what Lurana thought about all this family trouble?
The New York Times newspaper said a deposition was taken down of Lurana for the inquest. We've never seen or heard of that anywhere else.

[Susan]

I checked through Hiram's testimony again to see if he mentioned Andrew coming to their house, other than the time that Hiram cut Andrew's acquaintance, no mention. Perhaps Andrew visited his sister when he knew that Hiram would be at work?

Yes, the more I think about it, I can totally see Emma confiding in Lurana about troubles in the family. Lurana was probably the closest thing Emma had for a mother figure after Sarah passed away. And especially since Emma didn't view Abby in that light.

Yes, I wonder too what Lurana's take was on the whole situation. It would be wonderful if we had her testimony in some way to clarify things a bit. Do you think there might be some lost written and signed statement from Lurana out there that wasn't introduced in court?

[Nadzieja]

I know Andrew didn't like Hiram so they didn't socialize. Did Abby & Laruna ever talk to each other? Being Andrew's sister (I don't know how their relationship was) you would think she might make an attempt at being friends with his new wife Abby. Which brings me to the question was Abby close with anyone? Did she have anyone who she talked with or confided her problems to?

[Shelley]

I would bet Sarah Whitehead heard the worst of it from Abby- and her sister Mrs. Fish from Hartford via letters. I wish we knew of any correspondence Abby wrote. Families used to save letters. Now, with email, in 100 years we will know NOTHING-everything will have been deleted.

[Kat]

I checked through Hiram's testimony again to see if he mentioned Andrew coming to their house, other than the time that Hiram cut Andrew's acquaintance, no mention. Perhaps Andrew visited his sister when he knew that Hiram would be at work?

Yes, the more I think about it, I can totally see Emma confiding in Lurana about troubles in the family. Lurana was probably the closest thing Emma had for a mother figure after Sarah passed away. And especially since Emma didn't view Abby in that light.

Yes, I wonder too what Lurana's take was on the whole situation. It would be wonderful if we had her testimony in some way to clarify things a bit. Do you think there might be some lost written and signed statement from Lurana out there that wasn't introduced in court?

The New York Times was not famous for its accuracy in the Borden case. But it would be cool to think there was a deposition of Lurana during the inquest. But if there was, it might not have had much usable information in it, as she was not called at any other hearing, or trial, to testify- or any other statement taken to be added to the court documents- that we know of. As for the grand jury, we would not know for certain who was called there.

If Lurana was in a lot of pain a lot of the time, Emma may not have burdened her with family troubles. I do think tho, it is human nature to complain to a relative.

I wasn't thinking about a close family relationship per se, until you brought that up about their being close. I was thinking along the lines of convenient. You are right, tho- because Lurana and Hiram did live at Ferry Street, did live with Emma before Lizzie was born, she was a full blood aunt to Emma- the Harrington's also lived across the street from the Abraham Borden *homestead* on Ferry Street, according to an 1871 map.
Lurana married Hiram when she was 27, and it was only 3 1/2 months after her own mother died. And it's my impression that he moved in with her and the Bordens. Emma would go to her with problems- I think.

[Kat]

I know Andrew didn't like Hiram so they didn't socialize. Did Abby & Laruna ever talk to each other? Being Andrew's sister (I don't know how their relationship was) you would think she might make an attempt at being friends with his new wife Abby. Which brings me to the question was Abby close with anyone? Did she have anyone who she talked with or confided her problems to?

From 1865 to 1872, Abbie lived with Andrew, Emma and Lizzie at the Ferry Street property- and during that time so did Lurana and Hiram.

Lurana was born August 10, 1826. Abbie was born January 21, 1828. It seems they would be opposites, astrologically speaking. But that closeness in age might bode well for a fond relationship.
Recall, that during this time frame, Emma was also gone away to school for a year and a half. And that both women married relatively late in their lives: Lurana age 27, Abbie age 37.
There are parallels now that we look this over, as to when their mothers died and when they themselves acquired stepmothers and when they married as older spinsters.
We should make a timeline between these 2.

[Nadzieja]

Seeing that the Laruna & Abby were only 2 years apart is it possible they knew each other as children? Possibly from school or maybe the same church? The town I'm from is a mill town also and it seemed when I grew up that everyone knew everyone else or knew someone in the family.