Lizbeth

[LizbethTurner]

Does anyone know when -and why -Lizzie started using the name "Lizbeth"? As that is my given name and it's not a common one, it feels a little odd to see it on her grave marker!

[Harry]

“… Lizzie's name for the first time appeared in the 1905 City Directory as "Lizbeth," a name she maintained throughout the remainder of her life and had engraved on her grave stone at Oak Grove Cemetery. …

I read somewhere this was just after Emma left Maplecroft.

She never did legally change it however, requiring her to sign it both ways on her will and other legal documents. Of interest also is her middle name on the family tombstone is spelled “Andrews” adding an “S”.

Why these changes would be the interesting part.

BTW, welcome

[mbhenty]

Yes:I have known a couple of Elizabeths....but, never a Lizzie or Lizbeth.

As a matter of fact, Lizzie Borden is the only instance where I heard the name Lizbeth.

So yes, very uncommon, but where the name Lizzie reminds me of a little girl, and the name, Elizabeth royalty, Lizbeth symbolizes strength, willpower and allure.

Perhaps it is because I am familiar with Lizzie borden who has given birth to my sentiments to the name "Lizbeth".

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The first time the name Lizbeth came up was around 1897. Books about Lizzie and the case will tell you she started calling herself Lizbeth shortly after the trial. But, from what I can remember the Thilden Thurber story about the stolen painting in which Lizzie signed a confession was the first time "LIzbeth" was placed out there. (There is a school of study which believes Lizzie never signed the note and that it was forged)

Officially, Lizzie never changed her name, not legally.

Some report that the first time she used the name Lizbeth was in the Telephone book. To any official extent, it appeared in the Fall River Directory in 1905.

When signing her name on legal documents Lizzie had to use her real name, Lizzie A. Broden, but there is proof that when she did she did so by signing both Lizbeth and Lizzie Borden. This is apparent on some of her real estate transactions.

Both names were even used on her will when she died as shown below. Notice, she signed "Lizbeth A. Borden first.

Though for some of us, she never did............die.

[mbhenty]

Yes, Oops!

Sorry Harry. When I answered Lizbeth's question you were not there.

We must have been writing a response at the same time.

After I posted I noticed that you had already given attention to the post.

Thanks.

Yes, look at that. Posts: 1

Wish you a pleasant stay Lizbeth.

[mbhenty]

Oh yes, I cannot finish by not mentioning:


To further investigate when Lizzie first used the name Lizbeth, we may get a better idea when Parallel Lives comes out next week.

In it will be personal letters written by Lizzie and hopefully copies and photos of such letters which show the actual signature.

From what I have been told, there will be further examples of the name "Lizbeth" in Parallel Lives and of Lizzie signatures in general.

Stay tuned.

[Harry]

No problem, mb, we came to the same conclusions. Radin pretty much debunked the Tilden-Thurber document as a forgery and I can't remember when it originally surfaced.

[LizbethTurner]

“… Lizzie's name for the first time appeared in the 1905 City Directory as "Lizbeth," a name she maintained throughout the remainder of her life and had engraved on her grave stone at Oak Grove Cemetery. …

I read somewhere this was just after Emma left Maplecroft.

She never did legally change it however, requiring her to sign it both ways on her will and other legal documents. Of interest also is her middle name on the family tombstone is spelled “Andrews” adding an “S”.

Why these changes would be the interesting part.

BTW, welcome

Thanks for the welcome. Why does any adult change his or her name? To reinvent themselves, I suppose, for whatever reason. I find it odd that her legal name was Lizzie and not Elizabeth, and of course the choice of her middle name is intriguingly queer. As you say, "why" is always the interesting part.

[LizbethTurner]

Wish you a pleasant stay Lizbeth.

Thanks. Just don't call me Lizzie!

[mbhenty]

Yes, Harry. I remember reading Radin and the Edward Rowe Snow story, etc.

But, I must admit to never researching the Tilden Thurber story and all its particulars. We must also remember that though highly respected, a nautical historian, and writer of countless books, Snow was a story teller, many about pirates.

Though, it is interesting to note that even Snow could not avoid writing something about Lizzie Borden. Though born not to far from Maplecroft on the outskirts of Boston, the topic "Lizzie Borden" was an uncommon subject matter for Snow to write about. Perhaps he believed he really had a lead and in the end was conned.

If it could be proven that Lizzie did not use the name "Lizbeth" before 1905, it would be further possible proof of a forgery.....though not conclusive.

I am told that Parallel Lives has further examples of Lizzie's signature for our study and delight. A date could come into light.........but again, it would never be conclusive.

With LIzzie Borden nothing is ever conclusive, unquestionable, certain, or resounding..................except the brutal murders themselves.

[mbhenty]

I'll remember that Lizbeth.

After all, I'm sure that you and I can agree that there is only one Lizzie.

At least here on this forum.

[mbhenty]

:
Oops! Only hit the button once.

[DJ]

As for the "Andrews" on Lizzie's marker-- didn't we ascertain in a previous thread that that was the stone carver's error?
That is, his instructions were for "Andrew"?

(I've noticed several such mistakes on ancestors' graves, the most notable-- or notorious-- being a "Jr.," inexplicably and incorrectly affixed to a great-grandfather's-- who died in 1904-- marker. To wit: Such mistakes were, unfortunately, not uncommon, so grave stones aren't always the ultimate in geneaological information.)

Gosh, I'd change my name, too, if it were associated with a gruesome double homicide.

"Lizbeth" sounds more refined; oh, and in a previous thread, someone posted a pic, I believe, of her calling card, which bears the name "Lizbeth."

As for name changes, in the immortal lyrics of Cass Eliot:

"Please don't call me 'Mama' anymore--
You can call me 'Cass.'"

[Harry]

DJ, I'm from the Andrews school. Nothing in this case is ever settled.

In 1919 Lizzie hand wrote her burial instructions. Unfortunately the copy I stumbled across is very faded and the Andrew/Andrews part is hard to make out. Here tis':



I believe this is the only place Lizzie signed her middle name. It is interesting to note that she underlined Lizbeth twice [On another part of the instructions]. Hopefully Parallel Lives will shed additional light.

Way back in 2002 we had an interesting discussion on this very thing. See:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... BLHand.htm

More recent discussions can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3943&p=65941&hilit=andrews#p65941

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3868&p=64876&hilit=andrews#p64876

[LizbethTurner]

Harry, thanks for those links. Very helpful, especially to me as a newcomer. In regard to the various spellings of her first name, I have had many years of experience in watching people write "Elizabeth," "Lizabeth," and "Lisbeth" immediately after I spell my name out for them. Humans often do not listen to other humans.

[Albanyguy]

There's one thing I've always been mildly curious about. When Lizzie started calling herself "Lizbeth", I wonder what Emma's reaction was. Did she understand Lizzie's desire to re-invent herself after the trauma of the murders and the trial? Or did she think it was just a piece of self-indulgent foolishness ("Another one of Lizzie's stuck-up notions!")? Did she honor Lizzie's wish to be addressed as "Lizbeth" or did she stubbornly insist on calling her "Lizzie"?

I guess we'll never know for sure, although my own suspicion is that Emma may have derived a great deal of passive-agressive enjoyment from needling her sister by refusing to acknowledge the name change, especially as the tension worsened between them in the years before her departure from Maplecroft.

[DJ]

Apropos of "Andrew"/"Andrews"--

Miss Lizzie/Lizbeth was the question to the answer in a "Jeopardy" category this past p.m. (Nov. 17th).

The category being:

"Andrew"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Y'all can figure what the question was.)

[snokkums]

I always thought that she changed her name right after the trial and did it legally, but you all set me straight on that. Thanks guys. Guess I was reading wrong information.

[LizbethTurner]

Apropos of "Andrew"/"Andrews"--

Miss Lizzie/Lizbeth was the question to the answer in a "Jeopardy" category this past p.m. (Nov. 17th).

The question was actually "Who was Lizzie Borden?" And thanks for the spoiler alert.

[LizbethTurner]

I always thought that she changed her name right after the trial and did it legally, but you all set me straight on that. Thanks guys. Guess I was reading wrong information.

There's a lot of wrong information out there, isn't there? At this remove the challenge is to separate what we know from all the speculation.

It's clear to me that Lizzie was trying to reinvent herself. However, I always am a bit confounded when adults change their names. I just don't get it.

I really do wonder how Lizzie managed to weather the local attitude toward her after the trial. She must have had a very thick skin (and yes, that's speculation!)

[SallyG]

From over 30+ years of doing my genealogy, there are not many names that I find unusual anymore. I have a great+ grandmother named Triphana. I have a great grandmother whose name was either Leta, Lolita, or Loleda..it was never spelled consistently. Nicknames were frequently given as the true name. Sometimes middle names were simply initials and no actual name. And with the names that some people are naming their kids today, I can only think that 150 years from now, people will look back and say "what were they THINKING?" Lizzie Andrew was a fairly low key name for that era. Nothing really unusual about it.

[snokkums]

I always thought that she changed her name right after the trial and did it legally, but you all set me straight on that. Thanks guys. Guess I was reading wrong information.

There's a lot of wrong information out there, isn't there? At this remove the challenge is to separate what we know from all the speculation.

It's clear to me that Lizzie was trying to reinvent herself. However, I always am a bit confounded when adults change their names. I just don't get it.

I really do wonder how Lizzie managed to weather the local attitude toward her after the trial. She must have had a very thick skin (and yes, that's speculation!)

You're right,there is a lot of wrong information out there. And I too think she was trying to reinvent herself. And I also think that the town wasn't letting her do that. Think they remembered the brutally of the crime and that most of the town thought she did it. And they weren't letting her forget it. I think she had it rough after the trial.