Could this happen in your own home and you not hear it?

[Aamartin]

My house is similar to the Borden house in so much that there are no hallways downstairs. The front door opens into the south end of my living room, near the bottom of the stairs... Then there is a dining room between the living room and kitchen. (And a bed and bath off the dining room)

If I am in the kitchen-- I can not hear the TV on in the living room until I am about halfway across the dining room. I could not hear someone knock on my front door-- but can hear the bell.

In my bedroom, I can hear people walk up and down the stairs--- (room off dining room). From what I understand from those who have visited 92 2nd-- my house must be creakier-- because I can hear the footsteps of people upstairs-- and would surely hear someone fall to the floor-- or a scuffle of any kind-- but-- not in the kitchen.

It is a much larger house than it appears from the street-- Which I have been told is the case with the Borden home. It's not a huge home-- 1700 square feet.

But-- I know no one could hide here undetected. Even without the dogs.

As for hiding a hatchet the police wouldn't be able to find? Depends. In this day and age-- I don't know. In 1892? You bet.

I don't think the police did the kind of search you hear about today. A friend of mine was having problems with her son-- selling drugs. And they literally tossed her place. It took her days to get everything back in order.

[NancyDrew]

Interesting. My house is almost the same...its 1700 square feet, looks deceptively small from the outside, and has no hallways. It was built in 1927 and is comprised of a bunch of small rooms. No stairway though. My front door opens into my living room, then the dining room, then the kitchen. We are constantly yelling across the house and the other person cannot hear what we are saying. I guess houses were built solidly "back in the day." And like you, Aamartin, I can hear footsteps because the wood creaks, but I cannot hear voices.

I've often kidded with my husband that I could be fending off an attacker in one end of the house, screaming for my life and he wouldn't hear me. And to be honest, we've learned to ignore the creaking sounds--even the ones that sound like footsteps---because the house is so old, its ALWAYS making weird sounds. No central air. WE are forever open and closing windows in the summer to minimize the heat and maximize the shade.

Could this happen in my own home and I would not hear it? I hate to admit this...but probably YES.

[PossumPie]

Interesting. My house is almost the same...its 1700 square feet, looks deceptively small from the outside, and has no hallways. It was built in 1927 and is comprised of a bunch of small rooms. No stairway though. My front door opens into my living room, then the dining room, then the kitchen. We are constantly yelling across the house and the other person cannot hear what we are saying. I guess houses were built solidly "back in the day." And like you, Aamartin, I can hear footsteps because the wood creaks, but I cannot hear voices.

I've often kidded with my husband that I could be fending off an attacker in one end of the house, screaming for my life and he wouldn't hear me. And to be honest, we've learned to ignore the creaking sounds--even the ones that sound like footsteps---because the house is so old, its ALWAYS making weird sounds. No central air. WE are forever open and closing windows in the summer to minimize the heat and maximize the shade.

Could this happen in my own home and I would not hear it? I hate to admit this...but probably YES.

BUT here is my point Nancy Drew. BY DEFINITION, Lizzie yelled up to Bridget from the back door in the kitchen up to the 3rd floor to come quickly. Bridget DID indeed hear her. If Mrs. Borden was in her room on the second floor she surely would have heard also. If she had been in the front room, she may not have understood the words, but she would have heard Lizzie screaming up to the third floor. Lizzie kept insisting from the beginning that she HAD HEARD Mrs. Borden "come back" so Lizzie must have known that after that Yell for Bridget didn't also produce Mrs. Borden, that she must be 'incapacitated' somehow.

As for hearing Mrs. Borden fall to the floor? perhaps not as evidenced by your and Aamartin's accounts of your own homes, though I know several people who have said that they experimented in the actual Borden home and heard various degrees of sounds when someone fell, and heard someone call out from the kitchen very clearly in the guest bedroom.

[Allen]

We also have Lizzie saying she heard them talking down stairs in the sitting room from her own bedroom upstairs. She claimed their voices annoyed her so much that she shut her bedroom door. Alice Russell stated that she could hear the voices of the officers outside when she was staying upstairs in Abby and Andrew's bedroom. During my stays there I didn't hear much noise from other visitors while I was in the guest room. But it may have been due in part to the fact that I had the door closed much of the time. And that nobody fell to the floor or was trying to murder anyone or raising much of a ruckus.

[Aamartin]

Interesting. My house is almost the same...its 1700 square feet, looks deceptively small from the outside, and has no hallways. It was built in 1927 and is comprised of a bunch of small rooms. No stairway though. My front door opens into my living room, then the dining room, then the kitchen. We are constantly yelling across the house and the other person cannot hear what we are saying. I guess houses were built solidly "back in the day." And like you, Aamartin, I can hear footsteps because the wood creaks, but I cannot hear voices.

I've often kidded with my husband that I could be fending off an attacker in one end of the house, screaming for my life and he wouldn't hear me. And to be honest, we've learned to ignore the creaking sounds--even the ones that sound like footsteps---because the house is so old, its ALWAYS making weird sounds. No central air. WE are forever open and closing windows in the summer to minimize the heat and maximize the shade.

Could this happen in my own home and I would not hear it? I hate to admit this...but probably YES.

BUT here is my point Nancy Drew. BY DEFINITION, Lizzie yelled up to Bridget from the back door in the kitchen up to the 3rd floor to come quickly. Bridget DID indeed hear her. If Mrs. Borden was in her room on the second floor she surely would have heard also. If she had been in the front room, she may not have understood the words, but she would have heard Lizzie screaming up to the third floor. Lizzie kept insisting from the beginning that she HAD HEARD Mrs. Borden "come back" so Lizzie must have known that after that Yell for Bridget didn't also produce Mrs. Borden, that she must be 'incapacitated' somehow.

That interests me-- because I thought the consensus was no one heard a fall from the guest room while recreating it.....
As for hearing Mrs. Borden fall to the floor? perhaps not as evidenced by your and Aamartin's accounts of your own homes, though I know several people who have said that they experimented in the actual Borden home and heard various degrees of sounds when someone fell, and heard someone call out from the kitchen very clearly in the guest bedroom.

[PattiG157]

On Thursday, November 21, on the "Discovery ID" channel, they are showing a rerun of "LIZZIE BORDEN HAD AN AXE." Part of the show is a forensics specialist demonstrating what could potentially be heard around the Borden home at the time of the murders. He uses a doll house to demonstrate this. From what I remember (I've seen part of the documentary already), he feels that it is possible for those outside to NOT hear the murders going on inside. Maybe this is, in part, because the first (or second) blow would've been fatal to both Mr. and Mrs. Borden?? This is just my opinion, of course, but I do feel that it is possible for no sounds to be heard during the murders. I also, of course, plan to watch this TV show Thursday night!!!

[Allen]

Thank you for the alert PattiG. I like your enthusiasm about the case. I agree and think it's very possible no sounds could be heard outside during the murders for the simple fact that no sounds were heard during the murders. If sounds could be heard the Kelly maid was also outside washing windows as well and I'm sure she would have heard something. There were men working in the yard just behind the Borden house who also heard nothing. Not to mention all those people passing by on the street that morning. I have seen this show and was a bit disappointed in it. Using a doll house when you have the actual Borden house at your disposal to conduct experiments in seemed a little lack luster. It's like building a model of the Eiffel tower to show it's grandeur when you are standing next to the real thing. The experiments with the hatchet blows to the melon I found to be less than scientific also. The human head doesn't roll about like that because it's anchored down by the neck and the rest of the body. But I hope you enjoy the show and I will probably tune in as well. I usually watch any shows that have to do with the Borden murders.

[PossumPie]

Thank you for the alert PattiG. I like your enthusiasm about the case. I agree and think it's very possible no sounds could be heard outside during the murders for the simple fact that no sounds were heard during the murders. If sounds could be heard the Kelly maid was also outside washing windows as well and I'm sure she would have heard something. There were men working in the yard just behind the Borden house who also heard nothing. Not to mention all those people passing by on the street that morning. I have seen this show and was a bit disappointed in it. Using a doll house when you have the actual Borden house at your disposal to conduct experiments in seemed a little lack luster. It's like building a model of the Eiffel tower to show it's grandeur when you are standing next to the real thing. The experiments with the hatchet blows to the melon I found to be less than scientific also. The human head doesn't roll about like that because it's anchored down by the neck and the rest of the body. But I hope you enjoy the show and I will probably tune in as well. I usually watch any shows that have to do with the Borden murders.

I agree Allen. Screams would have been heard to a greater degree, so both victims were killed/rendered unconscious with the first or second blow. Thudding, falling, etc. would not have been heard even downstairs because of the heavy construction of the home. I hate when people try to get all scientific then use some faulty childish method. A watermelon is NOT a human skull. Not even close. And there are forensic heads which could have been used which would show very accurate spray patterns, wound patterns, and blood pool patterns. In a previous thread I posted several pictures of spray patterns using a very scientific forensic head and white outfit on the murderer...The surprising thing was the absolute lack of blood spatter above the knees of the killer and only on the forearm of the hand that swung the ax. The documentary should have taken an extra $50 and bought the forensic head and some fake blood...