The Many 'Maggies'
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
- debbiediablo
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Deborah
- Location: Upper Midwest
The Many 'Maggies'
I still see Bridget as being complicit in these murders, not that she wielded the hatchet but that she knew a lot more than she let on. And I do wonder about Andrew's relationship with her and with the previous maids. No matter how twinkly-eyed Andrew looks on the latest television documdrama or how huggy-bear he ends up in the arms of Sarah Whitehead, everything else written about Andrew Borden describes him as a tight-fisted skinflint who loved money and perfunctorily provided for his family but had no sensitivity about how he treated his tenants or borrowers or almost anyone else who did business with him. John Morse might've been the exception; they were cut from the same broadcloth. This was the era of pure capitalism so Andrew Borden was not unique in this respect. Self-made men understood how to make a dollar and how to save one!
This is why I cannot understand Bridget's role in the household. Women in the mills earned $7/week but had to pay room and board. Bridget earned $4/week but had room and board provided with Thursday afternoon and Sunday off. Her duties were cooking, dishes, laundry and caring from common areas of the house. Abby, Emma and Lizzie took care of their private areas and the guest room. (For that matter, why the lockdown throughout the house?) Yet Bridget wanted to leave, and was begged to remain by Abby. In the meantime Emma and Lizzie called her 'Maggie' as though she were interchangeable with all the other Irish maids. Not for one moment do I think they couldn't remember her name! This was, at best, objectifying.
The maid's job in the Borden household was cush-y compared to other households and certainly compared to working in the mills which was grueling and dangerous. So why did the Borden's have such a turnover in serving girls? Why did the sisters objectify them? Why did Andrew pay them well when he was a spendthrift in every other area of his life? What happened to the previous maids in the Borden home? Did the police ever ask them about relationships in that household? Bridget could've made a fortune talking to the 1890s version of the National Enquirer (which seems to be just about every newspaper published at that time) so why didn't she? Because she didn't need the money? Because she feared the killer would come back for her? Because she was clueless? Out of loyalty? Because it might open the door to her being tried for accomplice to murder? Or because the facts were so humiliating that she never wanted to think about them again?
We know so very little about Bridget compared to the other Final Four. We know even less about the 'Maggies' who preceded her.
This is why I cannot understand Bridget's role in the household. Women in the mills earned $7/week but had to pay room and board. Bridget earned $4/week but had room and board provided with Thursday afternoon and Sunday off. Her duties were cooking, dishes, laundry and caring from common areas of the house. Abby, Emma and Lizzie took care of their private areas and the guest room. (For that matter, why the lockdown throughout the house?) Yet Bridget wanted to leave, and was begged to remain by Abby. In the meantime Emma and Lizzie called her 'Maggie' as though she were interchangeable with all the other Irish maids. Not for one moment do I think they couldn't remember her name! This was, at best, objectifying.
The maid's job in the Borden household was cush-y compared to other households and certainly compared to working in the mills which was grueling and dangerous. So why did the Borden's have such a turnover in serving girls? Why did the sisters objectify them? Why did Andrew pay them well when he was a spendthrift in every other area of his life? What happened to the previous maids in the Borden home? Did the police ever ask them about relationships in that household? Bridget could've made a fortune talking to the 1890s version of the National Enquirer (which seems to be just about every newspaper published at that time) so why didn't she? Because she didn't need the money? Because she feared the killer would come back for her? Because she was clueless? Out of loyalty? Because it might open the door to her being tried for accomplice to murder? Or because the facts were so humiliating that she never wanted to think about them again?
We know so very little about Bridget compared to the other Final Four. We know even less about the 'Maggies' who preceded her.
DebbieDiablo
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- irina
- Posts: 802
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
- Real Name: Anna L. Morris
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
The one thing I think about the "Maggie" issue is that Bridget's mother's name was Margaret. Maybe Lizzie and or Emma made a mistake a couple times when Bridget was new and Bridget said she didn't mind because Maggie was her mother's name. Just an idea. I would feel more questioning about the issue if Bridget's mother's name was different.
Some immigrant women wanted to work for a while and start a family. Possibly, especially considering the good pay and opportunity to save, the Borden maids had a chance to move on with a little nest egg. By marrying at age 37 Bridget threw away her chance to have children of her own~if it mattered to her. By working ~for the Bordens~ at age 26 (or whatever it was, possibly older), she was in my opinion throwing away her opportunity for marriage and children. Maybe other women made other decisions.
Andrew was sharp with business dealings but I actually haven't read that he treated employees bad. Indeed it seemed that people who worked for him, including farm hands, had good things to say about him.
Some immigrant women wanted to work for a while and start a family. Possibly, especially considering the good pay and opportunity to save, the Borden maids had a chance to move on with a little nest egg. By marrying at age 37 Bridget threw away her chance to have children of her own~if it mattered to her. By working ~for the Bordens~ at age 26 (or whatever it was, possibly older), she was in my opinion throwing away her opportunity for marriage and children. Maybe other women made other decisions.
Andrew was sharp with business dealings but I actually haven't read that he treated employees bad. Indeed it seemed that people who worked for him, including farm hands, had good things to say about him.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
- debbiediablo
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Deborah
- Location: Upper Midwest
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
True...I haven't read where Andrew's employees disliked him. My personal experience is treating employees well keeps everybody happy, especially me! My understanding is every Borden maid was called 'Maggie' by Lizzie and Emma; the sisters didn't bother to learn their names or else Irish servants were low enough on the Fall River food chain that names didn't matter. (As per the Yale Law School article: a lady like Lizzie couldn't possibly kill her father...to entertain such as idea would put women of class on similar footing with Irish immigrant maids.) The thing is talking badly about an employer can lead to getting fired if still employed. Talking badly about an employer who just had his face bashed in can lead to becoming a murder suspect. So I wonder if anyone in Andrew's employ would venture to talk badly about Andrew...whether alive or dead. Do we know how the turnover of male employees compared to the turnover of females? And yes, elements of this comparison will be like comparing kumquats and huckleberries...
But I still wonder.
DebbieDiablo
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- Aamartin
- Posts: 663
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:56 pm
- Real Name: Anthony Martin
- Location: Iowa
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
I was always under the impression that a past servant girl was named Maggie and the girls were fond of her so they called Bridget that. It just now struck me-- I wonder if it was a passive aggressive stab at Abby whom which Bridget was fond?
- debbiediablo
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Deborah
- Location: Upper Midwest
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
Aamartin wrote: passive aggressive stab at Abby
DebbieDiablo
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- Curryong
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Rosalind
- Location: Cranbourne, Australia
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
This may or may not be relevant but, loving the Victorian period as I do I've read a lot of books about it and calling the maid(s) by a generic name was not rare. You get the impression many Victorian employers couldn't care less about their servants' feelings about it. They just couldn't be bothered to remember the different names.
Abby and Andrew were quite OK with calling Bridget by her proper name, it was only the status-conscious 'girls' who didn't do so.
By the late 19th century opportunities for working class women were opening up. A skilled female operative in a mill could earn a reasonable amount. Hard work and long hours, of course.
By the 1890's young women weren't going into 'service' in middleclass homes so much so employers were starting to make concessions, more time off, another maid to help, better wages etc.
However, maids often disliked the fact that they couldn't walk away from their jobs in the evenings in the way a shop assistant or factory operative could. They also, however much they may have liked their employer, didn't care so much for the "Yes, ma'am", "No, ma'am" "How much, ma'am" stuff they had to say every day.
Bridget liked Mrs Borden, perhaps felt a bit sorry for her and did stay for over two years. Because of the family paranoia about secrecy and burglars she had less to do than most maids.
However, the food wasn't much to write home about--both she and Lizzie apparently smirked when the subject of the ever-present mutton and the breakfast menu came up in court, and, because the Bordens hardly ever entertained, the life at No 92 must have been deadly dull (pun intended!)
At Abby and Andrew's funeral an elderly lady caused a stir when she tried to pray at the graveside. She was apparently very upset and was led away, crying. It was said she was one of their maids from years before.
I have never heard that Andrew treated his employees badly. He had been brought up as a Quaker and perhaps that bit still clung to him. He had a partner in the business for years and an upholsterer worked for them for years.
Abby and Andrew were quite OK with calling Bridget by her proper name, it was only the status-conscious 'girls' who didn't do so.
By the late 19th century opportunities for working class women were opening up. A skilled female operative in a mill could earn a reasonable amount. Hard work and long hours, of course.
By the 1890's young women weren't going into 'service' in middleclass homes so much so employers were starting to make concessions, more time off, another maid to help, better wages etc.
However, maids often disliked the fact that they couldn't walk away from their jobs in the evenings in the way a shop assistant or factory operative could. They also, however much they may have liked their employer, didn't care so much for the "Yes, ma'am", "No, ma'am" "How much, ma'am" stuff they had to say every day.
Bridget liked Mrs Borden, perhaps felt a bit sorry for her and did stay for over two years. Because of the family paranoia about secrecy and burglars she had less to do than most maids.
However, the food wasn't much to write home about--both she and Lizzie apparently smirked when the subject of the ever-present mutton and the breakfast menu came up in court, and, because the Bordens hardly ever entertained, the life at No 92 must have been deadly dull (pun intended!)
At Abby and Andrew's funeral an elderly lady caused a stir when she tried to pray at the graveside. She was apparently very upset and was led away, crying. It was said she was one of their maids from years before.
I have never heard that Andrew treated his employees badly. He had been brought up as a Quaker and perhaps that bit still clung to him. He had a partner in the business for years and an upholsterer worked for them for years.
- irina
- Posts: 802
- Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
- Real Name: Anna L. Morris
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
Interesting about life in Victorian times, Curryong.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
- debbiediablo
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Deborah
- Location: Upper Midwest
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
Andrew's Quaker background somewhat explains his eschewing of modern amenities and the easy life. Several of my friends from a previous workplace were Quaker. She was a social worker and he was a professor. They lived a very plain and simple life.Curryong wrote: He had been brought up as a Quaker
DebbieDiablo
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- twinsrwe
- Posts: 4457
- Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Judy
- Location: Wisconsin
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
It appears as though Andrew feared for his and Abby’s life, for many years. Not only were the exterior doors of the house kept locked at all times, Andrew also had a lock on his and Abby’s bedroom door, as well as the door leading into Lizzie’s room, and he kept a club under his bed! The club he kept under his bed was not something he had put there shortly before he was killed.debbiediablo wrote:... (For that matter, why the lockdown throughout the house?) ...
Lizzie’s Inquest testimony regarding the wooden club (p86):
"Q. Did you ever see that thing?
A. Yes, sir; I think I have.
Q. What is it?
A. My father used to keep something similar to this, that looked very much like it under his bed. He whittled it out himself at the farm one time.
Q. How long since you have seen it?
A. I have not seen it in years.
Q. How many years?
A. I could not tell you. I should think 10 or 15 years; not since I was quite a little girl, if that is the one. I can't swear that it is the one; it was about that size. (Marks it with a cross.)
Q. How many years, 10 or 15?
A. I was a little girl, it must be as much as that."
I find it odd that Andrew decided to whittle a club; it has been my experience that people tend to whittle something on the lines of a favorite animal, a sling shot, decorative ornaments, etc. I have to wonder why Andrew felt the need to not only whittle a club, but also to keep it under his bed, since the entire house was so securely locked.
Last edited by twinsrwe on Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Curryong
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Rosalind
- Location: Cranbourne, Australia
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
I agree. It's not the most attractive or decorative object to create. I wonder whether Andrew possibly whittled it when at the Swansea farm, left it down there for years, and then took it home to Second St after the home robbery. He might have been like some elderly people, very worried about possible burglars breaking in at night. Andrew could also have been very conscious that he was the lone male in a household of 'sheilas'', (Aussie expression for women) and felt protective of them and his property.
- twinsrwe
- Posts: 4457
- Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Judy
- Location: Wisconsin
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
Hmmm, good thought, Curryong. I wonder if Lizzie was telling the truth when she testified that her father kept the club under his bed, but she hadn't seen it in years. I wish we could count on Lizzie's testimony as being the truth; she lied so much that it's hard to know if she was actually telling the truth here, or not. Grrrr!
However, I still think Andrew was fearful for not only his life, but the lives of his family. Although, with the house locked up an divided the way it was, it would have been difficult if not impossible for him to protect Emma and Lizzie. I guess that is why I feel he was fearful for just his and Abby's lives.
However, I still think Andrew was fearful for not only his life, but the lives of his family. Although, with the house locked up an divided the way it was, it would have been difficult if not impossible for him to protect Emma and Lizzie. I guess that is why I feel he was fearful for just his and Abby's lives.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Curryong
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Rosalind
- Location: Cranbourne, Australia
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
Poor Alice, finding that under the bed the first night she slept there! In spite of talk of mad intruders with axes I wonder whether she thought for a moment that the burglar was somewhere in the house and had dropped the club! However cosy oil lamps were in the evenings it must have been dreadful to face sheer blackness after you got into bed. No bedside lamp at your disposal if anything happened.
- debbiediablo
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Deborah
- Location: Upper Midwest
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
In looking at the aerial view of the Borden neighborhood I get the impression they weren't in the worst neighborhood but certainly not the best! Plus Andrew was hard-nosed. Certainly he made enemies and may have feared for his safety, or his and Abby's. But this leaves Lizzie and Emma in the front of the house unprotected while Andrew is locked away in the back. Even though they were behind a triple locked front door, etc, maybe Lizzie took to sleeping with a hatchet under her bed just like Father. Or maybe Emma did when she occupied the front bedroom.
DebbieDiablo
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- Curryong
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Rosalind
- Location: Cranbourne, Australia
Re: The Many 'Maggies'
What a good idea! A loaded gun would have been better though I suppose there wouldn't be anyone to teach her how to use it!
I read on the forum , months ago now, that the sisters were growing increasingly unhappy because the area was becoming rough. Mrs Dr Chagnon and her daughter gave a statement to the police that in the days before the murders a strange man or men had been seen going over fences into back yards, and Lizzie may not necessarily have been lying (though I think she was) when she said she saw a dark figure go round the side of the house when she came back from an evening visit.
It was certainly a very mixed commercial area and if Andrew hadn't been such a stubborn old coot he might have agreed to have moved somewhere a bit more residential and quieter instead of investing in triple locks and keeping ancient clubs under the bed!
I read on the forum , months ago now, that the sisters were growing increasingly unhappy because the area was becoming rough. Mrs Dr Chagnon and her daughter gave a statement to the police that in the days before the murders a strange man or men had been seen going over fences into back yards, and Lizzie may not necessarily have been lying (though I think she was) when she said she saw a dark figure go round the side of the house when she came back from an evening visit.
It was certainly a very mixed commercial area and if Andrew hadn't been such a stubborn old coot he might have agreed to have moved somewhere a bit more residential and quieter instead of investing in triple locks and keeping ancient clubs under the bed!