Abby thought she might have been poisoned

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 9:54 am

Pretty sure everyone active on the forum currently are familiar with the general details of the Borden family stomach illness Tuesday & Wednesday of murder week.

I've pasted below Dr. Bowen's inquest testimony related to Abby knocking on his door early Wednesday morning. He then goes on to describe his follow up to the Borden house an hour or two later. Later that evening (6-9pm), Lizzie paid Alice Russell a house call and as part of their conversation, she expressed worry that someone had purposely tried to hard the family and now might try something even worse.

Do you think Abby suspected the poisoning was intentional or accidently and due to improper food preparation/storage? Based solely on Bowen's testimony below, I interpret that Abby was thinking the latter; it was accidental. Less than 12 hours later, Lizzie had evolved the family worries into the possibility that someone intended them harm.

What is your view on Abby's thoughts and why?

Click on image to enlarge and make it easier to read

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Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 11:21 am

I had not read that testimony yet, so I will give it some thought. Here's my first pass guess:

1. Arsenic could be obtained by soaking flypaper and it would likely not be tasted in the bread products Abby ate. I kind of doubt this, I heard that although technically possible, it would be very difficult to obtain a fatal dose in that manner. We'd have to try to narrow down when she ate and when the symptoms first appeared, because some poisons would act immediately and some over time when taken with food.

Food poisoning types and timeline:

Within Hours (30 mins to 8 hours): This is usually caused by toxins already present in the food (like Staphylococcus aureus). You might see a very quick onset of intense nausea, vomiting, and stomach cramps if you ate something like spoiled sliced meats, egg salad, or pastries that sat out too long.

Within a Day (6 to 24 hours): Common bacteria like Salmonella or Clostridium perfringens often kick in here. This is typical for contaminated poultry, meats, or large batches of food kept at the wrong temperature. Symptoms usually include diarrhea and stomach cramps.

A Few Days Later (2 to 5 days): Germs like E. coli or Campylobacter take a bit longer to replicate in your system. You might not feel sick until 3 or 4 days after eating undercooked ground beef, unpasteurized milk, or contaminated fresh produce.

Weeks Later (Rare): Certain rare pathogens, like Listeria or Hepatitis A, can actually take anywhere from 2 weeks to 50 days to show symptoms, though this is much less common.

2. If Lizzie was in the front entrance and Andrew and Abby were talking in the sitting room with the door shut, that would explain Lizzie running up the stairs when the front door was knocked on. She had to be out of sight before the sitting room door opened or she would have been caught listening to her parents' conversation.

My safe guess is it might have been simple food poisoning, rather than arsenic, but I'm pretty confident Lizzie was caught out by the door knock while spying on her parents. Running up the stairs really stands out to me.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 11:27 am

I think Abby was frightened, and felt they were intentionally poisoned.
These were her own words, but I wonder if she suspected a certain person, that I can’t say.

Abby was tight lipped, and probably wouldn’t express “who” even if she suspected someone in particular

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 11:57 am

Wait, I may be wrong about Lizzie spying at the door unless the front door was unlocked (doubtful) and Bowen was called in by Andrew or Abby and opened the front door himself. It seems really awkward for Lizzie to be running past a person opening the door. The door itself blocks the staircase access when opened. This is something to think about. I wonder if Bowen saw her through the windows on the side of the door. Here is the layout.

Or what if the sitting room door was open and Lizzie was listening from the staircase. That seems more likely, although I'm still not sure about this.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 2:12 pm

Actually, if Dr. Bowen saw her through the windows on the side of the door, either scenario works:

1. Sitting room door closed, Lizzie listening at the keyhole. Bowen knocks, glances through the windows beside the door and glimpses Lizzie running up the stairs just as the sitting room door opens and someone lets him in the house.

2. Sitting room door open, Lizzie sitting on the stairs listening. Bowen knocks and she scrambles up the stairs and he glimpses her running up the stairs just as someone enters the front hall to let him in.

I can't think of a way for Lizzie and the person who opened the door to be in that tiny entrance hall together and then Lizzie running up the stairs. The door completely blocks the staircase when fully opened. If Lizzie were casually downstairs and she was dressed in such a way she didn't want a visitor to see (something very casual/revealing for the time) she would just ask the person to wait a minute before opening the front door so she could go upstairs and put something appropriate on.

Running up the stairs is peculiar. Very peculiar.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 4:03 pm

Great pictures, thanks for posting. Doesn’t look like there’s a door from the kitchen to the back door hall, hard to tell.

I saw a video once and was amazed at how much area can be viewed from about halfway up the stairs. Almost every opening on the first floor.

A good experiment would be to sit on the stairs halfway up (out of sight), and listen to conversations in the first floor rooms, and check the results.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 4:06 pm

Whoever owns the house should have a pay website charging to physically check different things on the property, and house for sleuths.
Quick tests 20.00, more involved higher.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 4:51 pm

Bowen said he didn't see Abby when he visited, so unless she bolted out of the sitting room when he arrived, she must not have been in the same room as Andrew.

Lizzie could have been coming down the stairs to get the front door, but Bridget got it first. Perhaps Lizzie was wearing something she considered too casual for a doctor to see? Or she had a crush on him and didn't think her hair was nice? Girls get 'shy' for the oddest reasons (from the perspective of a dull male).

Bowen specifically tells us that Abby mentioned she had heard that "bakers cream cakes' could have poison in them. Keep pushing back, but that sounds to me like Abby is leaning towards the food causing her ailment. One thing I noticed this reading is that his testimony seems to tell us pretty clearly that Abby didn't eat swordfish or pork or any meat that could have gone bad that day or evening. I think most authors (including Spencer I think) think this initial illness was likely to do poorly kept swordfish.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 5:29 pm

Don't take this as a slight - I am guilty of this myself - but I want to point it out for future readers who are coming into this from the upcoming Netflix series - consider our default mental model, even for veteran researchers and how that plays into all of our likely first impressions that Lizzie was a girl - likely a teenage girl - when we first imagined the story, hearing about it, but not yet knowing the ages involved:

"Perhaps Lizzie was wearing something she considered too casual for a doctor to see? Or she had a crush on him and didn't think her hair was nice? Girls get 'shy' for the oddest reasons."

But Lizzie was not a shy teenager. She was a 32-year-old assertive Victorian woman living in a household of aging adults, with money, status, inheritance, and future security all pressing down on the family dynamic. The case works more neatly as melodrama if she is imagined as a 17-year-old being denied the social life she wants. It becomes more complex if we see it as a power struggle among middle-aged and older adults, especially women with very limited control over their own financial and social futures with influence over Andrew the one and only lever they could pull.

That is why I’m hesitant to explain the upstairs movement as simple girlish embarrassment over her dress or hair. A 13-year-old running upstairs because an outsider might see her in a nightgown makes immediate sense. A 32-year-old Victorian woman could certainly be concerned about propriety, but Lizzie’s personality complicates that reading.

If she merely needed privacy, why not tell Bridget, “Maggie, wait — let me get upstairs first”?

I’m still leaning toward the possibility that Lizzie was listening in on the conversation and was startled by the knock at the front door. That would better explain the sudden movement than ordinary embarrassment alone.

As for the illness, I still lean toward food as the cause — perhaps something worse than the usual summer complaint, maybe a particularly bad item or more than one spoiled thing in close succession.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 5:52 pm

I was in the house alone for over an hour and took a lot of photos. If there is a particular angle you want, let me know. The one spot I missed that I intended to get was the closet in the sitting room. I got most other closets, but nothing was to be seen - they are painted and plastered over and stuffed with modern boxes to support the bed & breakfast business operations or empty for guests to use for clothing in the bedrooms.

If you get a chance to spend the night, I think it's worth it. Walking around the house, hearing the floors creak, feeling all the nicknacks vibrate as you walk by in sneakers or socks because the floors are so uneven...it really gives you a sense of the place, then being in there and realizing it's only 15 paces from the front door to the back of the kitchen with a line of sight right over the sofa Andrew was murdered on really brings home how much of a tiny area, just a few paces across, all this took place in.

I plan on going back once the Fall River Historical Society reopens and the tourist season slows down.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 6:06 pm

Any pictures of the back side hall, and both kitchen pantry’s would be great.
I’ve wondered if there was a walkway from the old hallway sink room to the kitchen, THROUGH the north kitchen pantry,
Some floor plans seem to show one, or possibly an opening of some sort that could be used to hand stuff through.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 6:10 pm

Cam, I may not be tracking you well, but I think what you’re saying is that Abby did suspect poisoning, but not necessarily targeted poisoning.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 6:18 pm

Camgarsky was interested in the same area. The door to the sink room immediately inside the north side screen door is walled off. That area is now a bathroom. I'll post the modern fire route plan so you get the idea, then I have to downsize and post the relevant photos you asked for so it'll be a few minutes.

The area off the kitchen labelled pantry is actually a bathroom now. I think it is used mostly by the overnight ghost tours. The symbols on the map are for fire extinguishers and smoke detectors.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 6:25 pm

Thank for correcting me, I meant North kitten pantry.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 6:30 pm

Here are the three doors left to right (the dining room, the hall to the basement door, the stairs to the back of the house, the screen door, and the furthest right is to the old pantry, now a bathroom. Then a view of the small pantry that was just to the left of the 1892 stove (West Wall back in 1892, the stove is on the South Wall today). You can see the hole in the East Wall where the stove chimney was. I'll put the hall photos in a different post.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 6:35 pm

Here are the views from the kitchen to the screen door, the screen door to the kitchen, and me holding the phone touching the East Wall as close to the screen door opening as I could to simulate Emma walking out of that little room and looking into the kitchen to see Lizzie burning the dress. The view at the wall is from the bottom of the stairs with screen door to the left and the walled in doorway where the sink room was straight ahead.

When you see the distance from the kitchen to the screen door is 12 feet, you begin to wonder how Lizzie, sitting in that kitchen, failed to hear Andrew trying to get into that door, assuming he would go to the screen door to enter the house on a Summer day or when returning to the house from the barn, rather than walking past it to the triple locked from door. He was seen turning the corner from the driveway, so I can only assume he went to the barn or to the screen door before going to the front door when Bridget struggled with the locks.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 6:49 pm

Here are some good floorplans of 1892 for reference.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 6:53 pm

I made animated gif image of the first and second floor blinking back and all 4 floors. I think the web browser will show the animation. You never know until you try, so here it goes. ok, it works if you click on the image and let it load, it doesn't animate in preview mode, at least not for me.

The unknown is the wall between the sitting room and kitchen vs. Lizzie and her parents' bedroom. The other walls line up pretty well on the first and second floor as expected, but it might be an error in the drawing or the thickness of the wall because of the chimney running up between the wall and being filled by close space to the south of the chimney.

Here is a photo inside the parents' closet so you can see how far apart Lizzie's Bedroom wall was from her parents with the open space in between for the chimney and closets. That modern clothes hanger is on the south wall of the closet, so the closet depth can be measured, the back of that closet is toward Lizzie's wall, the hanger is on the south wall of the house. I think the person who drew those maps where that wall jumps back and forth on the animation chose one side of the wall on the first floor and the other side of the wall on the 2nd floor and the jump is the depth of the chimney.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 7:03 pm

Wow! Those are terrific pictures. I didn’t realize you could see that much of the kitchen from the hallway sink room area.
Cam and I have had discussions on different possibilities of the dress burning, and where everyone was, it’s an interesting aspect of the case , and for me personally, the hallway sink is troubling, partially because we don’t have much detail, or testimony about it,

Those doors certainly look original to the house, and that pantry shelf does too. I wonder it that’s “The” shelf.
Too bad they moved the stove. Interesting that some believe it’s the original stove Lizzie used , of course it’s just a replacement from that era.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jun 08, 2026 7:36 pm

Nice. Now I see how the kitchen door opens into the side hallway. Thank you.
First photo I have seen of it. Pretty cool.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 1:24 am

I messed up the East vs West wall above. Just to make things clear, and I think Spencer did this, too, but here's a visual aid of true geographic North (black and white arrow) and what people in the case called North (the yellow arrow). Second street in front of the Borden house ran Southwest - Northeast, but all the people in the trial were using Second Street as the North - South line relative to the house rooms.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 9:11 am

In my 'minds eye' Bowen's testimony translates as follows: Bowen knocked on the door, Bridget opened the door, Bowen entered and went over to the sitting room doorway to briefly chat with Andrew. At that time, Andrew was laying or sitting up on the same sofa he would be killed on 24 hours later. Morse testified when he arrived at the Borden home at 1:30pm that same day, Andrew laying down on the lounge.

Morse-PH pg. 236
Q. What time on the third?
A. I left New Bedford on the 12.35 train.
Q. That would get you here about one.
A Down to his house I think about half past on.

Morse-PH pg. 237
Q. How did you find Mr. Borden’s health that day?
A. He was sick, indisposed, laying on the lounge.
Q. That is when you got there?
A. That was when I got there.
Q. You left him so when you went away?
A. Well, he was sitting up before I went away, sitting there talking.

Bowen specifically tells us that he saw Bridget, Lizzie, and Andrew, but did not see Abby.

Bowen, Inquest pg. 116
"Mrs. Borden, I did not see..."

So, two observations. 1) to consider Abby was with Andrew and engaged in a confidential conversation has no basis beyond speculation, and 2) Lizzie lived in the house. She would not be out of place in any location on the first floor, so all she had to do when someone knocked on the door would be to stand straight and act normal. No need to scurry off anywhere. To your point, "Lizzie was a 32-year-old assured woman."

Side note: I'm relatively sure that the door between the front foyer and the sitting room was kept open, but I'm not going to take the time to find that reference.

My earlier point was that there could be any number of reasons besides espionage as to why a person would want to avoid engaging with a formal visitor early in the morning. My wife, daughter, and sisters may differ from most, but they would die if caught unprepared to receive a formal visitor. Particularly if they might have been up ill all night and possibly that morning.

Depending on their age and physical condition, I imagine they would move as quickly as they could up the stairs. My previous post had nothing to do with Lizzie being viewed as a teenager.

From an alternative view, if she was going up for a 'guilty' reason, perhaps she was concerned that Bowen would want to 'examine' her for the illness that perhaps she really didn't have.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 10:50 am

I'm a bit confused - perhaps I need to read more surrounding testimony. I was under the impression Bowen said he saw Lizzie running up the stairs as he entered the house. The front door, I think, can actually hit the railing or bottom step of the front staircase when fully opened. If not, it's close.

If Lizzie was in the sitting room, kitchen, or dining room and Dr. Bowen knocked on the door and Lizzie wanted to get upstairs, why not simply tell Bridget to wait a moment before opening the door so she can go upstairs?

Running up the stairs just rings alarm bells for me. I'll revisit when I get to that part of the testimony or Spencer's book.

If Dr. Bowen didn't use the word "run," I wouldn't be so suspicious, but a simple, "Maggie wait!" is all Lizzie would have needed to say to make her way privately upstairs if it were a purely mundane situation. Do I think Lizzie had the type of attitude to give a stern, "Maggie wait!" command to protect herself from embarrassment? Absolutely.

If I am missing some surrounding facts or reading the overall context of the situation wrong, please let me know.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 10:54 am

Initial thoughts on Lizzie running upstairs was that she didn’t care for Bowen.
Prior to the murders, Lizzie and Bowen created a stir when they went to church together, and sat in the Borden seats.
As you know, the Borden family was out of town, and some had said Lizzie was brave to stay home alone.
Others thought she had company…..
If true, Lizzie was fond of Bowen, or they had a falling out on a personal level since their outing.
Of course the church visit could have been completely innocent.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 11:51 am

All indications, to me, are that they were still friendly and she trusted him. She called him first, she told him about the bucket, he went up to her bedroom and was the door guardian, he was her doctor throughout the year after the murders - I can see her being embarrassed, depending on what she was wearing and her physical state after being sick, so going upstairs makes sense regardless - and if it was an unexpected knock and Lizzie didn't know who was at the door, all the more reason. However, running up the stairs, to me, requires some consideration of under which circumstances is that behavior most likely.

Those are steep and curving stairs, running up them is not the same as wide, flat, modern stairs. Especially in a dress. Scroll up and take a good look at those stairs and contemplate running up them.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 11:59 am

I think she was caught off guard and felt she wasn’t presentable.
Has happened to all of us.
I thought of something today, and wondered why a Dr. like Bowen wouldn’t choose to live in a more affluent neighborhood.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 12:07 pm

It was an expensive neightborhood. Second Street cost almost as much as Maplecroft - commercial district pricing one block away from Main St. The doctors lived in that area, I think, because it was close to downtown.

From Camgarsky: Andrew paid $10,000 for the Second St. house in 1871. Hard to wrap one's head around the fact that Maplecroft cost less than $15k in 1893.

See how close it is, this is a shot from Main Street to the Borden house?

But it appears you and Camgarsky do not put so much weight on running up those particularly steep and curved stairs in a dress as being something odd when a simple command to Bridget would allow her to walk up with dignity and not risk breaking her neck. Even in modern sneakers I was paying close attention at the top of those stairs.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 12:14 pm

That’s a cool photo!

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 12:23 pm

Not to change the subject. but while thinking on the Bowen/Borden church visit. I wonder what Phebe thought about it.
Today it wouldn’t be as big a deal. but manners were different back then.
Maybe Lizzie just needed a ride, or Bowen happened to see her walking.
When I was a boy, my grandmother wouldn’t even let me go into the neighbor’s yard to play with their kids, unless she called them first.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 12:43 pm

It was a Sunday evening service and Lizzie was known to sleep in. Perhaps it was as innocent as Phebe knowing Lizzie was home alone and she was fully aware of Dr. Bowen escorting her in public, on a public street, to a public place of worship. Considering his contact (or Victorian lack of) with many women professionally, I think Phebe might not have been oversensitive.

We also have to consider the source of the witness statement. It was from Jane Gray, Abby's step-mother, so not necessarily a neutral party after Abby was hatcheted to death.

“Four years ago, while the Borden family were summering over the river on the farm, Lizzie remained at home. One Sunday evening during this time, she and Dr. Bowen came to church together, and sat in the Borden seat. I myself saw them this evening. At the time, and since, there was much comment on this act…”

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 6:10 pm

We should create a thread for on-topic open banter - so, not an off topic thread, but a thread where we can throw ideas around without the expectation that the focus will stay narrow to the original topic.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 6:21 pm

Who knows what exactly Bowen meant by the word 'running', or if that is precisely what he said. I often wonder what the stenographer might have misheard or the newspaper mistyped. I've mentioned this before, but I try to avoid getting pulled too far down a rabbit hole based on a single isolated comment by anyone. For it to give much weight, I need to find something to corroborate a theory derived from a comment.

Hurrying might equal running to Bowen in that scenario. emoji shrug

Without any insights into interpersonal relationships between Bowen and Mrs. Gray, I can't imagine she would 'go after' Lizzie by pulling in a doctor. So I tend to believe her gossip. But I also find it meaningless. Could be a hundred plausible explanations that have nothing to do with anything inappropriate. If there was something inappropriate between them, I can't imagine they would demonstrate it in a setting like a church. Another isolated tidbit.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 6:53 pm

I agree on the stenographer point - I have had to make a lot of punctuation decisions to get the data clean enough to get into the database and I also had to guess which lawyer on a team was speaking when they were arguing back and forth and then 4 or 5 lines later the notes finally identify a speaker other than the lawyer who started with the witness. So, when I provide the plain text file of all the sworn testimony, you make have to correct the areas where I guessed wrong. I hope I didn't make any actual word erasures where some text was highlighted that I didn't see and hit a key wiping it out, but the good news is it will be formatted very well and a few minor text changes can be easy for any of us to correct if we find areas to correct.

I also agree about the rabbit holes in general, but this one really hit a nerve with me. Even if it was totally innocent — not spying on her parents' conversation — and even if she was hurrying rather than running, I still have trouble getting around one point: if Lizzie were embarrassed, why not simply say, or gesture, “Maggie, wait!”?

I can’t quite picture a circumstance where Lizzie was embarrassed enough to hurry up the staircase, yet not embarrassed enough to simply tell Bridget to wait a moment. That may be subjective, of course, but it doesn’t quite fit my impression of her personality.

So, for me, my thought process is:

1. If Lizzie truly did not want to risk being seen, I think she probably would have said “Maggie, wait!” or something equivalent.

2. If Bridget saw her in distress, rushing or hurrying up the stairs, I think she likely would have paused — woman to woman — and understood Lizzie’s embarrassment.

Here’s another possible scenario, which I think may be closer to Camgarsky’s view: Lizzie is in the kitchen reading a Harper’s magazine, perhaps in a housedress with messy hair. Bridget is in the sitting room or dining room, reacts quickly to the knock, and doesn’t initially see or think about Lizzie in the kitchen. Lizzie then realizes she is about to be caught out and hurries toward the front hall.

But even there, I still have trouble with the physical layout. Once the door is being opened, it blocks access to the stairway. Bridget would very likely notice Lizzie brushing past her in that tiny entryway, or even near the edge of the sitting room, which is also a very small space. If Lizzie were making a hurried move to get upstairs and Bridget saw it happening, I have trouble imagining Bridget continuing to open the door while Lizzie squeezed past her and went up the stairs.

There is also a window on either side of the front door. If there were lace curtains, no curtains, or open curtains, Dr. Bowen could potentially have seen her before the door was opened. But for the door to be opened and Lizzie still be caught on the staircase is harder for me to envision.
By contrast, my two original scenarios are much easier for me to picture. Lizzie was known to listen in on her father’s conversations, and also to overhear them even when she did not want to — for example, her testimony about the man denied a store, and her testimony about being annoyed by conversation in the sitting room while her bedroom door was open.

So, if the sitting room door was shut, the timing works for me if she was listening at the keyhole or near the door. If the door was open, I can also picture her sitting a few steps down from the top and getting caught out as she tried to get up, turn around, and hurry back upstairs.

But even then I cannot fully envision it. It would have to be perfect timing of Maggie not nor hearing Lizzie rushing up the stairs and opening that door. The only scenario that works for me 100% is Dr. Bowen saw her through the windows not after the door was opened. It's the only way the Lizzie and Bridget behavior makes plausible sense to me. I'm 99% sure Lizzie would say, "Maggie, wait." if she was caught out and saw Bridget getting ready to open the door. I'm 80% sure Lizzie rushing past her or even being seeing rushing up the stairs, Bridget as a woman and a servant, would not expose Lizzie by opening the door when she was clearly trying to not be seen.

The Dr. Bowen saw her through the window is the only scenario I can get 100% behind.

I know this hinges quite a bit on the single word “run” — though not entirely. This may simply be one of those subjective mysteries where we are each trying to visualize the sequence in our own heads. For both me and Camgarsky, we have actually gone up and down those stairs. My impression was that they were very steep, with triangular steps at the top, and my whole foot did not fit on all the steps. Toward the top of that staircase, it definitely had a “pay attention” feel to it.

I hope all of you like our AI generated Borden Case Inquiry Club clubhouse in the Improv thread.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 6:59 pm

I've always imagined Lizzie was coming down the stairs when he arrived and then pivoted and was rushed back up the stairs.

But the reason I started this thread was to get all of your opinion of if you think Abby suspected she was poisoned by bad food or by a person intentionally. I think the vote is split...inspector intentional and Lorcan bad food? Do I have that correct?

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 7:14 pm

Oops, sorry I was editing the prior post. My vote is:

1. At the time Abby went across the street and told Dr. Bowen she thought she was being poisoned, I think Abby really believed that.

2. Dr. Bowen dismissed it and I think may have calmed her down and changed her mind.

3. Once the family recovered the next day and given that they trusted the milk the morning of the murders and ate a normal (Borden normal, that is) breakfast that morning, I think at that point Abby was convinced it was just food poisoning.

I don't think Lizzie poisoned them in real life. I think it was a different, worse pain, than she had experienced before, and that alarmed her, and that was either caused by some really bad single item food poisoning, or more than one food item having gone bad and it was a double dose.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 7:21 pm

Yes, I think Abby was “frightened” due to thinking someone poisoned them, by food, milk, or otherwise, and quite possibly she may have suspected someone. —Just get that vibe from the testimony.

If Andrew and Abby had discussions after talking to Morse and going up to their room on Thursday evening, there’s a good chance Lizzie heard it all through the key hole.
An ear to that key hole is about as close as one could be, literally within a few feet .

This is certainly after the sickness, but perhaps Lizzie and Abby could read each other much better than we know.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue Jun 09, 2026 8:42 pm

Tuesday evening - elder Borden's violently ill.
Wednesday early morning - illness had subsided, they clearly were going to be ok.
Wednesday late morning - Lizzie reportedly attempts to purchase a powerful poison, was declined
Wednesday evening - Lizzie tells Alice that someone intentionally attempted to poison the family. She worried that violence was on horizon.
Thursday morning - we all know what happened.

Each iterative time period and event flow together seamlessly. Each time period transitions smoothly and with greater intensity to the next.

TeenaBee · Post by **TeenaBee** » Thu Jun 11, 2026 1:01 am

Yes, all those events flow together, although I am not entirely convinced it was Lizzie in that store asking for poison, mistaken identifications do happen, not all that common but not unheard of either, so thank you for the "reportedly." And if it wasn't Lizzie but all the rest is true then it becomes a different mystery, hiding in plain sight perhaps...

I agree that Abby thought they had been intentionally poisoned, I have also always thought that since Abby and Lizzie were both telling people the same thing that they maybe sort of convinced each other of it and had both been trying to figure out the source of poison (milk or baker's bread). Which is very interesting to me. Lizzie justified her fears by saying she believed her father had an enemy, but of course most people think his real enemy was Lizzie and so don't get curious about why Abby jumped to the conclusion someone would try to poison them. Did Abby also think Andrew had an enemy? Why weren't the police more curious about why Abby would think someone would try to poison the family? There is a weird line in Victoria Lincoln's book, in which she suggests that Abby told Bowen a lie: “She told him that her husband had received an anonymous note threatening poison.” What? I cannot fathom where that idea came from, any part of it. Nothing like that in the transcripts that I know of. Maybe it was a newspaper rumor? But either way, I keep wondering, where did the air of paranoia in that house come from?

And Lizzie scurrying up the stairs, yeah, don't think there's anything to that. I can't tell you how many times I have scurried out of sight if someone unexpected comes to the door and I haven't pulled myself together for the day yet.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Thu Jun 11, 2026 11:08 am

I hope I can explain this clearly, because I do not think I have been getting across what I am trying to convey. Please take this as an attempt to reason through the scene carefully, not as me trying to be argumentative.

My method is to create a “movie” in my head from each person’s perspective.

The point I am trying to reason through is this: if Dr. Bowen saw Lizzie running up the stairs only after Bridget had opened the front door and admitted him, the physical layout creates a problem.

As I understand the geometry, when the front door is opened, it blocks access to the staircase. So if Lizzie is already on the stairs at that moment, she did not enter the staircase after the door was opened. She had to be there before, or at least already in the act of going up before Bridget fully opened the door.

That matters because the front hall was small and open upward toward the second floor. The staircase was not hidden in some remote part of the house. If Lizzie was hurrying up the stairs while Bridget was at the door, then Bridget would likely have been aware of her presence by sight, sound, or both.

Likewise, for Lizzie to come upon the situation unaware, she would have had to miss several things: the knock, Bridget dealing with the locks, Bridget greeting Dr. Bowen, and Dr. Bowen greeting Bridget. That seems difficult to reconcile with the size and openness of the hall.

So to accept the idea that Bowen saw Lizzie running up the stairs after he had already been let into the house, it seems to me that one has to accept one of the following:

1. Lizzie was so embarrassed that she scrambled up the steep, curving staircase in a dress rather than simply saying something like, “Maggie, wait.”

2. Bridget was so unaware of Lizzie’s movement that she opened the door and admitted Bowen while Lizzie was plainly trying not to be seen.

3. Lizzie somehow did not hear the knock, the locks, Bridget greeting Bowen, or Bowen greeting Bridget.

I may be making a false assumption somewhere, but I cannot yet see where the reasoning breaks down. If I am missing something about the timing, the layout, or the expected behavior of the people involved, I would genuinely like to know.

I completely agree that a woman being caught downstairs in the morning in a nightgown, with her hair not done, would be embarrassed and would naturally want to get out of sight. That behavior can be entirely innocent. But that is not the point I am trying to isolate.

I am trying to reason through the geometry of the room, the sound characteristics of the space, the timing of the door being opened, and the expected behavior of Bridget, Lizzie, and Dr. Bowen in that very small front hall.

As for Abby and thinking she was poisoned - this is pure speculation:

I think the summer complaint of minor food poisoning was a feeing Abby had felt her whole life, probably every summer. I think she felt a pain that did not feel like ordinary food poisoning and that scared her. I think it was likely the swordfish or more than one food item making the food poisoning worse than she had felt before.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Thu Jun 11, 2026 1:10 pm

Jump to 6:55 for the walking up the stairs experience:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfNzqdR4et8

Turn the volume up and try to picture the scene - I think short of going to the house yourself, which I highly recommend, those 30 seconds of video will be the next best thing for this portion of our investigation.

TeenaBee · Post by **TeenaBee** » Thu Jun 11, 2026 3:14 pm

Thanks for posting that link Lorcan, I hadn't see that video before! I have been to the house but so long ago I didn't quite remember how the door opened so near the stairway, although I do recall testimony about it in court. Also, your pictures of the house are fabulous, I appreciate those too!

So from what I understand, you are interested in trying to figure out whether Lizzie was "caught" on the stairs because she was eavesdropping on a conversation between a conversation between Abby and Andrew because she wanted to know if they'd figured out she'd poisoned them the night before with arsenic or something? I do know a lot of people think that's what she did, although I'm not sure why, when it was repeatedly brought up in court that there were no signs in the bodies of having been recently poisoned. Although I don't know how long signs would last...

But either way, I don't think we have enough detail from Dr. Bowen to know whether she was caught on the stairs one way or the other. He doesn't say if she was already on her way up when Bridget opened the door. If she didn't feel presentable, I would suppose she heard the knock and went through the entry just ahead of Bridget on Bridget's way to the answer door. Why she wouldn't say "Wait," well who knows why, maybe she did. Anyway, I don't see how she would miss a knock or door bell if she was already on the stairs, she would have had time to run up in the time it took Bridget to come answer the door.

Either way, it doesn't answer the real question, which is whether Lizzie tried to poison Abby and Andrew the night before. I am curious what the theory is on how she could have got them to ingest it when she didn't cook or serve the meals. All I keep coming up with is a movie image in my head of Lizzie in the kitchen and telling Bridget "What's that over there!" and dumping arsenic in the.... what? Not the swordfish... Tea?

Also, thank you Camgarsky for the reminder about the cream cakes, I'd forgotten that, need to look it up

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Thu Jun 11, 2026 4:01 pm

I personally don't think Lizzie poisoned them just before the murders. I think poisoning was the original plan, but she wasn't able to obtain prussic acid and she improvised under a deadline of some sort, assuming she is guilty.

From what I've read so far, the arsenic from fly paper would have been too weak and unreliable. There is poison available from soaking green clothing (like a fancy dress) and poison in the green paint for the house. Perhaps she tried and failed with one of those at some point, but prussic acid would have worked first try, for sure, 10 cents worth was considered enough to be fatal, but AI flagged it and wouldn't get specific with me. I think it is safe to assume that prussic acid was definitely strong enough to kill both victims. She just didn't succeed at getting any, as far as we know.

My reason for thinking Lizzie didn't poison them is there was no visible damage to the stomachs and they recovered quickly. I'm not an expert on the stomach damage particular poisons cause, but I do know the doctors specifically mentioned no visible damage to the stomachs - no sign of poisoning whatsoever - in addition to negative chemical tests for poison.

As for Lizzie spying - if she was spying - I think it was the Will or a real estate deal that she would have been trying to hear about, not whether the parents thought they were being poisoned. Abby didn't suspect Lizzie enough to be afraid of her - they interacted normally and she was willing to be alone in the house with Lizzie. If she wanted Bridget around, she wouldn't have sent her outside. Or Abby could have left the house before telling Bridget to go outside. I don't think Abby feared Lizzie was trying to kill her.

My best guess as to the staircase incident is:

Lizzie was sitting right below the curve of the stairs listening for real estate and other financial / real estate talk. The sitting room door was opened. Bowen knocked, catching Lizzie off guard. Bowen caught a glimpse of a woman who looked like Lizzie through the window next to the door (no one else in the house had Lizzie's build - Bridget was the closest) and she opened the door so he knew it wasn't her. Lizzie had already gotten out of Bridget's sight by the time Bridget entered the foyer to open the door.

My second best guess is identical except the sitting room door is closed, Lizzie is up close to that door listening when Bowen knocks and she runs up the stairs before Bridget opens the sitting room door and Bowen sees her in the window as before.

I just don't see a 3rd option being realistic. You saw in the video how crowded and noisy that acoustic chimney of a staircase is. No way Lizzie was scrambling to get away and Bridget ignores that. Not with the power dynamics between Lizzie and Bridget. I could be wrong, but those are my best guesses so far.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Fri Jun 12, 2026 10:39 am

If Lizzie was up to something mischievous, why would she feel compelled to do anything except relax and behave as if she belonged wherever she might have been when Bridget came to the front door. During multiple questioning sessions, Bridget told us a lot about August 3 and 4 and never happened to mention that when she went to the front door she caught Lizzie behaving oddly. It seems most likely that Bridget would have mentioned an encounter with Lizzie of any note.

Again (sorry to be repetitive from earlier post), Bowen testified that he didn't see Mrs. Borden. So that would indicate that she was not in the foyer, stairway or most likely the sitting room. Supporting his statement, when Bowen and Borden interacted about why Bowen had showed up, AJB nor Bowen seemed to have 'turned' to Abby for input on what was up despite the fact that she is the person instigated Bowen's visit to the Borden's.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Fri Jun 12, 2026 2:57 pm

Those are good points, I'll have to read a lot more in context. I was envisioning the scene with Abby and Andrew in the sitting room, but if that was not the case, that changes almost all of my assumptions.

Here's what I think I have to work with as consistent with the evidence.

1. When Dr. Bowen knocked on the front door, it was Bridget who opened the door.

2. Lizzie was seen on the staircase (it couldn't have been Emma, she was away. It couldn't have been Abby, she probably physically cannot "run" up the stairs and her body size would not be mistaken for Lizzie, it couldn't have been Bridget, she opened the door - so, it was almost certainly Lizzie).

3. The 3 positions Dr. Bowen could have been standing in when he saw her are, on the front porch through the window, on the front porch through the door Bridget just opened, a few feet away from her directly inside the foyer.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Fri Jun 12, 2026 9:15 pm

Just speculation, but I don’t think Andrew would have some sort of see through curtains on his front door since he was a locker.
Locker’s do not like their privacy imposed upon in most cases, so I would think Bowen saw Lizzie after the door was opened, and probably just a quick glimpse as she reached the top.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sat Jun 13, 2026 9:54 am

Good point about window covering. We know all the other windows had shutters and blinds (assuming different items).

I agree with the glimpse up the stairs interpretation. My brain imagines Lizzie was starting to come down, the door knocked, she stopped to see who Bridget greeted, for whatever reason it being Bowen, she turned a hurried back up the stairs. Maybe because it was a male, maybe because it was a doctor, maybe because it was Bowen specifically, maybe maybe maybe.

No one is going to run up those stairs using the pure definition of running. In this instance I think Bowen meant running as hurrying.

TeenaBee · Post by **TeenaBee** » Sat Jun 13, 2026 11:11 am

Back to the original question that Camgarsky asked, after reading the testimony he posted more carefully, I have changed my opinion, it no longer strikes me that Abby thought they were "intentionally" poisoned, I am not seeing why I interpreted it that way in the first place. I suppose I wanted to believe that Lizzie had support from others in the house that her father had that enemy Lizzie was suggesting to Alice. But it doesn't seem that was Abby's suspicion when she spoke to Dr. Bowen, she was merely trying to figure out if they had been sold bad stuff at the bakery.

I know there was a big poisoning story in the papers at the time, a restaurant (The Cable House?), in Salisbury Beach Mass. A bunch of people died in July, the month before, getting sick after eating there, so maybe Abby saw these stories and that's why she jumped to the conclusion? Although she didn't mention that story to Bowen, she only mentioned those cream cakes so people she knew must have been talking about some event like that in town.

I am also doubting the usual food poisoning assumption by the innocent faction, especially if Abby "only" ate cake and bread for dinner. So I get why the "guilty" side thinks maybe Lizzie poisoned them with arsenic. But how could she poison Abby if she "only" ate cake and bread for dinner? And why would Bridget also be throwing up a little over 24 hours later? Seems to me a stomach virus could be the more likely culprit. I know Victoria Lincoln had written that they didn't understand much about transmissible viruses back then and when people in the same house all got sick at the same time, they'd blame on "somethigng they ate."

I still think that Abby and Lizzie must have discussed the thought of them being poisoned though, at least by the bread. The baker's bread was also what Lizzie first suggested to Alice that night, and only when Alice disqualified that as an option did Lizzie turn to the suggestion about the milk, which came with a dose of "father has an enemy." Whether she suggested her milk theory innocently out of fear or because she was planning murder, well.... that wasn't the orginal question, so I'll stop with just saying thanks for postiing actual testimony, even when I've read it before it sometimes gets lost in the cracks of memory

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sat Jun 13, 2026 1:35 pm

I am out of town and short of time to properly post testimony.

With that said, I recall that Bridget testified that Andrew dipped his bread in milk Tuesday evening. Using that as a starting point, most people don't include what they drank when describing a meal they had. So even though Abby didn't mention milk, it would make sense to me that Abby had milk with her bread and cakes...perhaps dipping it just like Andrew. If their ailment was not natural, placing something in milk would be 'easy' compared to putting something in a baked good.

Details about arsenic are in a thread somewhere on this forum, I recall "possumpie', a nurse, posting those details. Arsenic would not have been detectable a couple days later when the Borden stomachs were tested.

When I have the time, I'll attempt to see if there was any news about baked cakes that we're causing ailments in Fall River around that time. Guessing if those reports existed, they would have already been posted and discussed. But I'll give it a go.

TeenaBee · Post by **TeenaBee** » Sat Jun 13, 2026 5:32 pm

Well I got curious about testimony, and went searching for toast and for milk, and Bridget did say "they" had milk on toast on Tuesday night, although she was certain only of Andrew having both together. But I agree, it's possible Abby had milk, too, actually it's probable because --

Abby ALSO suspected the milk, not just Lizzie, at least according to John Morse's testimony at the prelminary hearing. He said Abby had told them she thought they'd been poisoned by something they ate and when asked if she said how, Morse replied, “She said she did not know how, unless, they had some baker’s bread that day, she spoke about that, and about some milk, she said she did not know but it might be poisoned, the way they were sick.”

So I do know arsenic is undetectable in taste and odor, and I know that recovery can be quick, about 12 hours, from a low enough dose of arsenic, so I can accept that if it was indeed that low then there would no longer be signs of irritation in the stomach. So the theory is Lizzie somehow slipped it in the milk when no one was looking but just didn't use enough to cause them too much trouble?

I have also read that besides vomiting and a massive amount of diarrhea, it comes with other symptoms, like a garlic taste in the mouth, burning lips and excessive salivation. I don't believe Abby mentioned any other symptom except for vomiting did she?

Anyway, it will always be in the realm of conjecture, and for me, it's much easier to assume they simply caught a stomach bug than try to figure out just how exactly she got arsenic into them. But I suppose if it really was Lizzie shopping for prussic acid the next morning, and not a case of mistaken identity, then it's not so farfetched to think she would have tried already.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Sat Jun 13, 2026 7:27 pm

Interesting side story I found today in Spencer’s CALB page 233:
According to an article in the Fall River Daily Evening News
(July 20, 1892)

State Inspector John F McCaffrey was in Fall River during August of 1892,and was checking on the sale of illegal substances, and poisons. His wife was part of his operation, and on August 1st, she attempted to buy prussic acid from a drug store on Pleasant Street .
McCaffrey’s wife fit the general description of Lizzie Borden.
Age—26—-150 pounds.
The article claimed Marshall Hilliard was aware of the operation.