I must confess that throughout my exploration of the crime, I've focused on who Lizzie really was. I'm beginning to think that to understand that better, we should know who Emma was also. There is so little written about Emma and her life. It seems that right after the crimes, some ambitious reporter would have dug into the life of the alleged killer's only sibling. After she left Lizzie, she moved frequently never staying anywhere more than 3-4 years. Was this because she couldn't get along with them? Was she running from Lizzie?
"Murder Mystery Had Local Twist: Lizzie Borden's Sister Kept Hidden at Newmarket Home," Democrat, Newmarket, NH, February 7, 1981.
Mr. Louis Fillon, 89 years old and a life-long resident of Newmarket, New Hampshire, remembered that at the age of 18, while delivering grain to 203 South Main Street, he dis- covered that Emma Borden was living at the two-family home. He was requested by Emma's lawyer to keep his discovery a secret to prevent Lizzie from finding Emma's whereabouts and taking her money. He recalled that her companion, Annie Connor, was surprised that he discovered Emma's identity
What do we know about Emma?
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PossumPie
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What do we know about Emma?
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
One of the things I’ve always wondered about Emma is how much family information she shared. She was characterized as retiring, but did she tend to spill the beans? The following people knew a great deal of detail—did they get most of their information from her?
—Alice Russell: mentioned as being closer to Emma than to Lizzie
—John Morse: He said Emma always wrote, and that he knew her better than Lizzie.
—Andrew Jennings: Lizzie accused Emma of giving her away to Jennings.
—Hiram Harrington: He said Emma always visited he and Lurana (Andrew’s sister) at their house, and Lizzie not as often. He and Lizzie voiced antipathy toward each other. He said Andrew and he had hard feelings between them
Especially with regard to Uncle Hiram, it is difficult to make sense of who would have informed him of granular financial and stock information (see interview below), if not Emma. (One possibility, though, is JVMorse. One of Kat’s posts from many years ago notes that Morse went to Hiram’s street during his 8/5/92 Friday night outing, and the only other street resident relating to the case was a hairdresser—I’ll hunt that up if anyone wants me to re-post it).
Fall River Daily Herald — Aug. 6, 1892
CLOSE IN MONEY MATTERS
Hiram Harrington, 40 Fourth street, is married to Laurana, Mr. Borden’s only sister. A reporter who interviewed him gathered the following story: ‘My wife, being an only sister, was very fond of Mr. Borden and always subservient to his will, and by her intimacy with his affairs I have become acquainted with a good deal of the family history during years past. Mr. Borden was an exceedingly hard man concerning money matters, determined and stubborn, and when once he got an idea nothing could change him. He was too hard for me.
‘When his father died some years ago he offered my wife the old homestead on Ferry street for a certain sum of money. My wife preferred to take the money, and after the agreements were all signed, to show how close he was, he wanted my wife to pay an additional $3 for water tax upon the homestead.’
“What do you think was the motive for the crime?” asked the reporter.
‘Money, unquestionably money,’ replied Mr. Harrington. ‘If Mr. Borden died, he would have left something over $500,000, and all I will say is that, in my opinion, that furnishes the only motive, and a sufficient one, for the double murder. I have heard so much now that I would not be surprised at the arrest any time of the person to whom in my opinion suspicion strongly points, although right down in my heart I could not say I believed the party guilty.
‘Last evening I had a long interview with Lizzie Borden, who has refused to see anyone else. I questioned her very carefully as to her story of the crime. She was very composed, showed no signs of any emotion or were there any traces of grief upon her countenance. That did not surprise me, as she is not naturally emotional. I asked her what she knew of her father’s death, and, after telling of the unimportant events of the early morning, she said her father came home about 10:30. She was in the kitchen at the time, she said, but went into the sitting room when her father arrived. She was very solicitous concerning him, and assisted him to remove his coat and put on his dressing-gown; asked concernedly how he felt, as he had been weak from a cholera morbus attack the day before. She told me she helped him to get a comfortable reclining position on the lounge, and asked him if he did not wish the blinds closed to keep out the sun, so he could have a nice nap. She pressed him to allow her to place an afghan over him, but he said he did not need it. Then she asked him tenderly several times if he was perfectly comfortable, if there was anything she could do for him, and upon receiving assurance to the negative she withdrew. All these things showed a solicitude and a thoughtfulness that I never had heard was a part of her nature or custom before. She described these little acts of courtesy minutely.
‘I then questioned her very carefully as to the time she left the house, and she told me positively that it was about 10:45. She said she saw her father on the lounge as she passed out. On leaving the house she says she went directly to the barn to obtain some lead. She informed me that it was her intention to go to Marion on a vacation, and she wanted the lead in the barn loft to make some sinkers. She was a very enthusiastic angler. I went over the ground several times, and she repeated the same story. She told me it was hard to place the exact time she was in the barn, as she was cutting the lead into sizeable sinkers, but thought she was absent some 20 minutes. Then she thought again, and said it might have been 30 minutes. Then she entered the house and went to the sitting room, as she says, she was anxious concerning her father’s health. “I discovered him dead,” she said, “and cried for Bridget, who was upstairs in her room.”
‘Did you go and look for your stepmother?’ I asked. ‘Who found her?’ But she did not reply. I pressed her for some idea of the motive and the author of the act, and after she had thought a moment, she said, calmly: “A year ago last spring our house was broken into while father and mother were at Swansey, and a large amount of money stolen, together with diamonds. You never heard of it because father did not want it mentioned, so as to give the detectives a chance to recover the property. That may have some connection with the murder. Then I have seen strange men around the house. A few months ago I was coming through the back yard, and, as I approached the side door, I saw a man there examining the door and premises. I did not mention it to anyone. The other day I saw the same man hanging about the house, evidently watching us. I became frightened and told my parents about it. I also wrote to my sister at Fairhaven about it.” Miss Borden then gave it as her opinion that the strange man had a direct connection with the murder, but she could not see why the house was not robbed, and did not know of anyone who would desire revenge upon her father.’
Mr. Harrington was asked if he knew whether or not there were dissentions in the Borden family. ‘Yes, there were, although it has been always kept very quiet. For nearly ten years there have been constant disputes between the daughters and their father and stepmother. Mr. Borden gave her some bank stock and the girls thought they ought to be treated as evenly as the mother. I guess Mr. Borden did try to do it, for he deeded to the daughters, Emma L. and Lizzie A., the homestead on Ferry street, an estate of 120 rods of land with a house and barn, all valued at $3000. This was in 1887.
‘The trouble about money matters did not diminish, nor the acerbity of the family ruptures lessen, and Mr. Borden gave each girl ten shares in the Crystal Spring Bleachery company, which he paid $100 a share for. They sold them soon after for less than $40 per share. He also gave them some bank stock at various times, allowing them, of course, the entire income from them. In addition to this he gave them a weekly stipend, amounting to $200 a year.
‘In spite of all this the dispute about their not being allowed enough went on with equal bitterness. Lizzie did most of the demonstrative contention, as Emma is very quiet and unassuming, and would feel very deeply any disparaging or angry word from her father. Lizzie, on the contrary, was haughty and domineering with the stubborn will of her father and bound to contest for her rights. There were many animated interviews between father and daughter on this point. Lizzie is of a repellant disposition, and after an unsuccessful passage with her father would become sulky and refuse to speak to him for days at a time. She moved in the best society in Fall River, was a member of the Congregational church, and is a brilliant conversationalist. She thought she ought to entertain as others did, and felt that with her father’s wealth she was expected to hold her end up with others of her set. Her father’s constant refusal to allow her to entertain lavishly angered her. I have heard many bitter things she has said of her father, and know she was deeply resentful of her father’s maintained stand in this matter.
‘This house on Ferry street was an old one, and was in constant need of repairs. There were two tenants paying $16.50 and $14 a month, but with taxes and repairs there was very little income from the property. It was a great deal of trouble for the girls to keep the house in repair, and a month or two ago they got disgusted and deeded the house back to their father.’
—Alice Russell: mentioned as being closer to Emma than to Lizzie
—John Morse: He said Emma always wrote, and that he knew her better than Lizzie.
—Andrew Jennings: Lizzie accused Emma of giving her away to Jennings.
—Hiram Harrington: He said Emma always visited he and Lurana (Andrew’s sister) at their house, and Lizzie not as often. He and Lizzie voiced antipathy toward each other. He said Andrew and he had hard feelings between them
Especially with regard to Uncle Hiram, it is difficult to make sense of who would have informed him of granular financial and stock information (see interview below), if not Emma. (One possibility, though, is JVMorse. One of Kat’s posts from many years ago notes that Morse went to Hiram’s street during his 8/5/92 Friday night outing, and the only other street resident relating to the case was a hairdresser—I’ll hunt that up if anyone wants me to re-post it).
Fall River Daily Herald — Aug. 6, 1892
CLOSE IN MONEY MATTERS
Hiram Harrington, 40 Fourth street, is married to Laurana, Mr. Borden’s only sister. A reporter who interviewed him gathered the following story: ‘My wife, being an only sister, was very fond of Mr. Borden and always subservient to his will, and by her intimacy with his affairs I have become acquainted with a good deal of the family history during years past. Mr. Borden was an exceedingly hard man concerning money matters, determined and stubborn, and when once he got an idea nothing could change him. He was too hard for me.
‘When his father died some years ago he offered my wife the old homestead on Ferry street for a certain sum of money. My wife preferred to take the money, and after the agreements were all signed, to show how close he was, he wanted my wife to pay an additional $3 for water tax upon the homestead.’
“What do you think was the motive for the crime?” asked the reporter.
‘Money, unquestionably money,’ replied Mr. Harrington. ‘If Mr. Borden died, he would have left something over $500,000, and all I will say is that, in my opinion, that furnishes the only motive, and a sufficient one, for the double murder. I have heard so much now that I would not be surprised at the arrest any time of the person to whom in my opinion suspicion strongly points, although right down in my heart I could not say I believed the party guilty.
‘Last evening I had a long interview with Lizzie Borden, who has refused to see anyone else. I questioned her very carefully as to her story of the crime. She was very composed, showed no signs of any emotion or were there any traces of grief upon her countenance. That did not surprise me, as she is not naturally emotional. I asked her what she knew of her father’s death, and, after telling of the unimportant events of the early morning, she said her father came home about 10:30. She was in the kitchen at the time, she said, but went into the sitting room when her father arrived. She was very solicitous concerning him, and assisted him to remove his coat and put on his dressing-gown; asked concernedly how he felt, as he had been weak from a cholera morbus attack the day before. She told me she helped him to get a comfortable reclining position on the lounge, and asked him if he did not wish the blinds closed to keep out the sun, so he could have a nice nap. She pressed him to allow her to place an afghan over him, but he said he did not need it. Then she asked him tenderly several times if he was perfectly comfortable, if there was anything she could do for him, and upon receiving assurance to the negative she withdrew. All these things showed a solicitude and a thoughtfulness that I never had heard was a part of her nature or custom before. She described these little acts of courtesy minutely.
‘I then questioned her very carefully as to the time she left the house, and she told me positively that it was about 10:45. She said she saw her father on the lounge as she passed out. On leaving the house she says she went directly to the barn to obtain some lead. She informed me that it was her intention to go to Marion on a vacation, and she wanted the lead in the barn loft to make some sinkers. She was a very enthusiastic angler. I went over the ground several times, and she repeated the same story. She told me it was hard to place the exact time she was in the barn, as she was cutting the lead into sizeable sinkers, but thought she was absent some 20 minutes. Then she thought again, and said it might have been 30 minutes. Then she entered the house and went to the sitting room, as she says, she was anxious concerning her father’s health. “I discovered him dead,” she said, “and cried for Bridget, who was upstairs in her room.”
‘Did you go and look for your stepmother?’ I asked. ‘Who found her?’ But she did not reply. I pressed her for some idea of the motive and the author of the act, and after she had thought a moment, she said, calmly: “A year ago last spring our house was broken into while father and mother were at Swansey, and a large amount of money stolen, together with diamonds. You never heard of it because father did not want it mentioned, so as to give the detectives a chance to recover the property. That may have some connection with the murder. Then I have seen strange men around the house. A few months ago I was coming through the back yard, and, as I approached the side door, I saw a man there examining the door and premises. I did not mention it to anyone. The other day I saw the same man hanging about the house, evidently watching us. I became frightened and told my parents about it. I also wrote to my sister at Fairhaven about it.” Miss Borden then gave it as her opinion that the strange man had a direct connection with the murder, but she could not see why the house was not robbed, and did not know of anyone who would desire revenge upon her father.’
Mr. Harrington was asked if he knew whether or not there were dissentions in the Borden family. ‘Yes, there were, although it has been always kept very quiet. For nearly ten years there have been constant disputes between the daughters and their father and stepmother. Mr. Borden gave her some bank stock and the girls thought they ought to be treated as evenly as the mother. I guess Mr. Borden did try to do it, for he deeded to the daughters, Emma L. and Lizzie A., the homestead on Ferry street, an estate of 120 rods of land with a house and barn, all valued at $3000. This was in 1887.
‘The trouble about money matters did not diminish, nor the acerbity of the family ruptures lessen, and Mr. Borden gave each girl ten shares in the Crystal Spring Bleachery company, which he paid $100 a share for. They sold them soon after for less than $40 per share. He also gave them some bank stock at various times, allowing them, of course, the entire income from them. In addition to this he gave them a weekly stipend, amounting to $200 a year.
‘In spite of all this the dispute about their not being allowed enough went on with equal bitterness. Lizzie did most of the demonstrative contention, as Emma is very quiet and unassuming, and would feel very deeply any disparaging or angry word from her father. Lizzie, on the contrary, was haughty and domineering with the stubborn will of her father and bound to contest for her rights. There were many animated interviews between father and daughter on this point. Lizzie is of a repellant disposition, and after an unsuccessful passage with her father would become sulky and refuse to speak to him for days at a time. She moved in the best society in Fall River, was a member of the Congregational church, and is a brilliant conversationalist. She thought she ought to entertain as others did, and felt that with her father’s wealth she was expected to hold her end up with others of her set. Her father’s constant refusal to allow her to entertain lavishly angered her. I have heard many bitter things she has said of her father, and know she was deeply resentful of her father’s maintained stand in this matter.
‘This house on Ferry street was an old one, and was in constant need of repairs. There were two tenants paying $16.50 and $14 a month, but with taxes and repairs there was very little income from the property. It was a great deal of trouble for the girls to keep the house in repair, and a month or two ago they got disgusted and deeded the house back to their father.’
Last edited by Reasonwhy on Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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camgarsky4
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Yes, please do post the Kat reference to Morse visiting Harrington's neighborhood. There is a similar telling of this in JJ. Be interesting to compare whatever Kat's source was to what JJ provides.
I've found Hiram's interview to be one of the most informative shared insights in this case. In the past, so many on this forum chose to not like Hiram and viewed his story as mean spirited and apparently inaccurate in many key aspects. I find his interview extremely believable, primarily because most of it is verifiable.
I've found Hiram's interview to be one of the most informative shared insights in this case. In the past, so many on this forum chose to not like Hiram and viewed his story as mean spirited and apparently inaccurate in many key aspects. I find his interview extremely believable, primarily because most of it is verifiable.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Add to Emma’s tales told that of her account to Rev. Buck, of “the happenings” at French St. that caused her to move out and away from Lizzie for the rest of her life (reported by Emma in her 1913 newspaper interview.)
Did Emma “tell” things to get advice on how to handle Lizzie and the rest of her family? Was her telling a bid for sympathy? A nervous habit? Was (over?) sharing a way to ingratiate herself, or repay hospitality?
A criminal Lizzie would not want to confide too much in her sister, I don’t think…
Makes me less inclined to believe that Emma may have conspired in either the house robbery or the murders. What do others think?
Did Emma “tell” things to get advice on how to handle Lizzie and the rest of her family? Was her telling a bid for sympathy? A nervous habit? Was (over?) sharing a way to ingratiate herself, or repay hospitality?
A criminal Lizzie would not want to confide too much in her sister, I don’t think…
Makes me less inclined to believe that Emma may have conspired in either the house robbery or the murders. What do others think?
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
I cannot now find the exact post I was referring to—should have copy/pasted it then. However, I did find related material, which I will copy/paste in my next post.camgarsky4 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:55 pm Yes, please do post the Kat reference to Morse visiting Harrington's neighborhood. There is a similar telling of this in JJ. Be interesting to compare whatever Kat's source was to what JJ provides.
….
—partial post, Camgarsky
Last edited by Reasonwhy on Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
From the thread, “Iron or Lead?”
“Airmid
Report Quote
Post Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:00 am
—(part of Airmid’s post omitted here——————————
….There's this other very interesting newspaper article, from the Fall River Globe, August 6th: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResear ... oversy.htm
(scroll all the way down for the complete article!).
It tells about the movements of John Morse on the evening of Friday the 5th. He goes out around 8 o'clock to get the mail at the post office, followed by a large crowd. Then, at around 9, he goes out for a second time and is followed by Officer Minnehan to Turner Street, where Hiram Harrington lived.
I would say that after 9 o'clock in the evening was hardly an appropriate time for a social call in those days. So I always thought that there was something pressing that Morse had to discuss with Harrington on Friday evening. If the "Hiram Harrington-interview" had been published on the 5th, Morse's actions would have made perfect sense: he picked up the mail and the newspapers, went home, read the interview, and wasted no time in telling Hiram Harrington what he thought of him!
But if the Hiram Harrington interview wasn't published until the 6th, none of that could have happened.
So that leaves me again with a bunch of questions:
- Is the information in the "Intense Excitement" newpaper article correct and accurate?
- If none of the newspapers published the interview with Hiram Harrington on the 5th, how come that all 3 major Fall River newspapers, all evening newspapers, and allegedly all competitors, managed to publish exactly the same interview in their August 6th editions?
- If the story of Morse's visit to Turner Street on the 5th is correct, what could have been so pressing to account for such a visit?
- Would that have been the occasion that old blabbermouth Morse told Hiram Harrington about Lizzie's alibi?
- Who was the reporter who had the interview with Hiram Harrington? I always assumed it was Porter, but that might not be correct.
- Or was there, as Harry suggests, a special edition on the 5th of one of the newspapers, or any other written source, that originally published the interview?
It would be so easy to answer that last question with "Yes", since that would solve most of my questions.
But apparently it's not as easy as that. I'll keep looking for information and hints, though! Any thoughts, information or ideas would be greatly appreciated!
Airmid.”
From the the thread, “Iron or Lead?”
“Kat
Report Quote
Post Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:46 pm
According to Harry's research, the (only?) case-related character on Turner Street, other than the Harrington's was "Maurice Libby" a hairdresser at #4. I'm not sure what his *role* was.
I suppose it was Hiram that Morse saw.
These men might have thought they could control the fortune. There could be lots of things they needed to discuss- just use the imagination, I guess.”
“Airmid
Report Quote
Post Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:00 am
—(part of Airmid’s post omitted here——————————
….There's this other very interesting newspaper article, from the Fall River Globe, August 6th: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResear ... oversy.htm
(scroll all the way down for the complete article!).
It tells about the movements of John Morse on the evening of Friday the 5th. He goes out around 8 o'clock to get the mail at the post office, followed by a large crowd. Then, at around 9, he goes out for a second time and is followed by Officer Minnehan to Turner Street, where Hiram Harrington lived.
I would say that after 9 o'clock in the evening was hardly an appropriate time for a social call in those days. So I always thought that there was something pressing that Morse had to discuss with Harrington on Friday evening. If the "Hiram Harrington-interview" had been published on the 5th, Morse's actions would have made perfect sense: he picked up the mail and the newspapers, went home, read the interview, and wasted no time in telling Hiram Harrington what he thought of him!
But if the Hiram Harrington interview wasn't published until the 6th, none of that could have happened.
So that leaves me again with a bunch of questions:
- Is the information in the "Intense Excitement" newpaper article correct and accurate?
- If none of the newspapers published the interview with Hiram Harrington on the 5th, how come that all 3 major Fall River newspapers, all evening newspapers, and allegedly all competitors, managed to publish exactly the same interview in their August 6th editions?
- If the story of Morse's visit to Turner Street on the 5th is correct, what could have been so pressing to account for such a visit?
- Would that have been the occasion that old blabbermouth Morse told Hiram Harrington about Lizzie's alibi?
- Who was the reporter who had the interview with Hiram Harrington? I always assumed it was Porter, but that might not be correct.
- Or was there, as Harry suggests, a special edition on the 5th of one of the newspapers, or any other written source, that originally published the interview?
It would be so easy to answer that last question with "Yes", since that would solve most of my questions.
But apparently it's not as easy as that. I'll keep looking for information and hints, though! Any thoughts, information or ideas would be greatly appreciated!Airmid.”
From the the thread, “Iron or Lead?”
“Kat
Report Quote
Post Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:46 pm
According to Harry's research, the (only?) case-related character on Turner Street, other than the Harrington's was "Maurice Libby" a hairdresser at #4. I'm not sure what his *role* was.
I suppose it was Hiram that Morse saw.
These men might have thought they could control the fortune. There could be lots of things they needed to discuss- just use the imagination, I guess.”
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
So, Mr. Fillon would have been 18 in 1910, when Emma would have been 58. Nowhere near death, or, presumably, the senility combined with nephritis that her death certificate lists as the causes of death, when Emma was in her 70’s. If the news article quotes Emma’s lawyer correctly, and if that lawyer is accurately reflecting Emma’s concern during years when she was in her right state of mind, then wow! That means Emma was in financial fear of Lizzie, to the point of adopting an assumed name, hiding from Lizzie her whereabouts, and confiding her fears to her lawyer, just four years after moving away from French St.PossumPie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:33 am I must confess that throughout my exploration of the crime, I've focused on who Lizzie really was. I'm beginning to think that to understand that better, we should know who Emma was also. There is so little written about Emma and her life. It seems that right after the crimes, some ambitious reporter would have dug into the life of the alleged killer's only sibling. After she left Lizzie, she moved frequently never staying anywhere more than 3-4 years. Was this because she couldn't get along with them? Was she running from Lizzie?
"Murder Mystery Had Local Twist: Lizzie Borden's Sister Kept Hidden at Newmarket Home," Democrat, Newmarket, NH, February 7, 1981.
Mr. Louis Fillon, 89 years old and a life-long resident of Newmarket, New Hampshire, remembered that at the age of 18, while delivering grain to 203 South Main Street, he dis- covered that Emma Borden was living at the two-family home. He was requested by Emma's lawyer to keep his discovery a secret to prevent Lizzie from finding Emma's whereabouts and taking her money. He recalled that her companion, Annie Connor, was surprised that he discovered Emma's identity
Presumably, Emma did not fear this during the twelve years she lived with Lizzie. So, what could have happened to create this fear? Could it be that the reason Emma left was that Lizzie finally confessed, and Emma came to fear what Lizzie was capable of doing for money? This article does not seem in sync, though, with the tone of Emma’s 1913 interview, wherein she is protective of Lizzie…
Last edited by Reasonwhy on Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... -post.html
And
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... -emma.html
The only change I would have made to this essay was when I had a 50-50 chance of choosing which school Emma went to, after researching and discussing the probabilities with the big guns (Len and the guys at FRHS), Holyoake or Wheaton, I chose Holyoake, but it turned out to be Wheaton
They were similar schools, however.
It also was not yet known about Emma's further travels out of the country.
This article describes Emma's probable experience at Wheaton
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... years.html
Lots of busy research going on at The Hatchet!
BTW, there is also an article by Len, where he gives his opinion the Emma Interview did not happen.
And
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... -emma.html
The only change I would have made to this essay was when I had a 50-50 chance of choosing which school Emma went to, after researching and discussing the probabilities with the big guns (Len and the guys at FRHS), Holyoake or Wheaton, I chose Holyoake, but it turned out to be Wheaton
They were similar schools, however.It also was not yet known about Emma's further travels out of the country.
This article describes Emma's probable experience at Wheaton
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... years.html
Lots of busy research going on at The Hatchet!
BTW, there is also an article by Len, where he gives his opinion the Emma Interview did not happen.
Last edited by Kat on Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
The second Hatchet article, linked by Kat, above, and also authored by her, contains the information that Emma actually moved to Newmarket in 1923, so at least Mr. Fillon’s memory about his own age at discovering Emma there must be mistaken, if not his entire memory…
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PossumPie
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Thank you Kat for the article links. I spent Sunday afternoon reading through them. I wonder why Emma, with all of her wealth, chose to live as a boarder in other people's homes after leaving Lizzie? While the new wealth changed Lizzie's life entirely, it seems it did little to change Emma.
The more that I read about Emma leaving Lizzie, the more it seems as if it was a "moral" decision, not a fight. They spent most of their lives living together and got along well enough that they moved in together after the murders. They lived together for years after, but something happened that Emma sought the counsel of the reverend who recommended leaving. Not having contact with her afterward points to a very big problem.
The more that I read about Emma leaving Lizzie, the more it seems as if it was a "moral" decision, not a fight. They spent most of their lives living together and got along well enough that they moved in together after the murders. They lived together for years after, but something happened that Emma sought the counsel of the reverend who recommended leaving. Not having contact with her afterward points to a very big problem.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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camgarsky4
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Hi! I am in the NC mountains for the week and away from my books. But here are a few scattered information tidbits on the above topics.
1) JJ has 2-3 references to Morse/Harrington in the days after the murders. One (I think in a John Morse section) mentions that Morse told the defense that Harrington was pissed that Lizzie was rude to his wife and threatened to "out Lizzie". My recollection is this chat must have happened on the Friday. JJ also mentions Morse & Harrington being seen talking on a corner and I think it was the train station. That said, remember that they were both uncles to the sisters and had know the Borden's for decades. Odds are that Morse visited Ferry St. when both the Harrington's & Borden's lived there and were acquainted. But what they discussed is something we should explore.
2) If Fillon's recollections are accurate, I think at that late point in Emma's life she was experiencing dementia issues and was likely being intentionally shielded by her caretakers/friends. Maybe her condition was something they did not want proclaimed, especially to her sister since Emma sill had a major share of ownership in the French St. house. Perhaps dementia would provide cause for Lizzie to seek full ownership? I'm not a lawyer, so just tossing that thought out for consumption.
3) Keep in mind that Emma's talks with Reverend Buck regarding her home life had to have been years before she actually moved out. I believe he died at least 2 years before the split. So whatever the issue was, it was long term and then something happened to make the actual move. My impression is that Lizzie lived a 'robust' but secluded life and went beyond acceptability of Emma. The theater folks and their partying might have been the straw that broke the camels back. Why that led to a permanent estrangement seems odd, but maybe that is where the common awareness of what happened on August 4th comes into play. My pet theory is that Emma came to the point of "and this is the lifestyle you killing our father enabled. Screw you, I'm out of here."
1) JJ has 2-3 references to Morse/Harrington in the days after the murders. One (I think in a John Morse section) mentions that Morse told the defense that Harrington was pissed that Lizzie was rude to his wife and threatened to "out Lizzie". My recollection is this chat must have happened on the Friday. JJ also mentions Morse & Harrington being seen talking on a corner and I think it was the train station. That said, remember that they were both uncles to the sisters and had know the Borden's for decades. Odds are that Morse visited Ferry St. when both the Harrington's & Borden's lived there and were acquainted. But what they discussed is something we should explore.
2) If Fillon's recollections are accurate, I think at that late point in Emma's life she was experiencing dementia issues and was likely being intentionally shielded by her caretakers/friends. Maybe her condition was something they did not want proclaimed, especially to her sister since Emma sill had a major share of ownership in the French St. house. Perhaps dementia would provide cause for Lizzie to seek full ownership? I'm not a lawyer, so just tossing that thought out for consumption.
3) Keep in mind that Emma's talks with Reverend Buck regarding her home life had to have been years before she actually moved out. I believe he died at least 2 years before the split. So whatever the issue was, it was long term and then something happened to make the actual move. My impression is that Lizzie lived a 'robust' but secluded life and went beyond acceptability of Emma. The theater folks and their partying might have been the straw that broke the camels back. Why that led to a permanent estrangement seems odd, but maybe that is where the common awareness of what happened on August 4th comes into play. My pet theory is that Emma came to the point of "and this is the lifestyle you killing our father enabled. Screw you, I'm out of here."
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
I don't know what Hiram Harrington had to do with the topic of Emma, but if we are looking at "the uncles" possibly discussing control of the fortune, remember there were now 2 fortunes to handle: Andrew was also looking after Mary Borden's money, as well.
Somehow, I can't imagine Hiram astute in large money management, being originally a blacksmith.
Here is a reminder (sorry, I don't know how to copy-paste on an iPad):
Somehow, I can't imagine Hiram astute in large money management, being originally a blacksmith.
Here is a reminder (sorry, I don't know how to copy-paste on an iPad):
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
In my essay, and even now, I think Emma was influenced by the people she lived with, all to the good, after leaving Lizzie. And I think she was "in love", like a fantasy love, with the magnetic Rev Buck. Seeking his guidance, and for a time, living in his home with his daughters after he passed, was to feel closer to him. And yes, her morals would be elevated by associating with these people.
And Lizzie could not morph into Lizbeth, with Emma still under the same roof at Maplecroft.
Once the Lizbeth persona came to the fore, the sisters would no longer have anything in common IMO.
Maybe liberation for both?
And Lizzie could not morph into Lizbeth, with Emma still under the same roof at Maplecroft.
Once the Lizbeth persona came to the fore, the sisters would no longer have anything in common IMO.
Maybe liberation for both?
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Hadn’t thought of love—interesting. She did refer to him as her best friend. I had been thinking more like an alternate father-figure…Kat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:32 am In my essay, and even now, I think Emma was influenced by the people she lived with, all to the good, after leaving Lizzie. And I think she was "in love", like a fantasy love, with the magnetic Rev Buck. Seeking his guidance, and for a time, living in his home with his daughters after he passed, was to feel closer to him. And yes, her morals would be elevated by associating with these people.
And Lizzie could not morph into Lizbeth, with Emma still under the same roof at Maplecroft.
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
You know...that sentimental Victorian dreamy thing, like crushes those young girls would get? I think that grew to real love, just never acted upon.
And BTW, girls also were noted for and there was a tolerance for crushes amongst girls, as well. That was Lizzie, I think.
And BTW, girls also were noted for and there was a tolerance for crushes amongst girls, as well. That was Lizzie, I think.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Well, he seemed of the type sure to have opinions, anyway! Poking around on the forum, I found this post discussing his background beyond blacksmithing. You are on this thread from 2006, Kat, along with Airmid:
Airmid
Report Quote
Post Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:18 am
“Allen, I'll get back to you in a bit with I hope some better examples with what I mean. I find it very difficult though to pick the right examples. After all, trying to illustrate that the piece is not in Philip Harringtons style could lead to saying "No of course not, since it is Hiram who spoke" and to show that it is not Hirams style to "No of course not, since it's Philip who wrote it down". I might be easier to try and debunk the whole interview! But I'll give it a try and you'll hear from me soon.”
(In the paragraph below, Airmid is referencing a prior post of Kat’s):
Kat @ Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:53 am wrote:
“It has always seemed fabricated in some way to me also, mainly because Hiram was a blacksmith and I could not imagine that he ever spoke like that. Then when the *interview* is compared to his testimony, he sounds like a blacksmith, and also less firm in his supposed opinion.”
(Here is Airmid, continuing his post):
“We should be careful there, I think. Hiram was involved in local politics and in the fraternities. He was a member of the FR council in 1860 and 1864 (from Fenner) and someone (Harry?) figured out he was a high priest in the Masons. So he would have been used to making speeches and (semi)official talk.We're very lucky to have his Inquest testimony as the source of the way he actually spoke!
Airmid.”
(The underlining and bolding above are mine, Reasonwhy’s).
So, I don’t know how knowledgeable this might make him in money matters, but interesting to know of his interests beyond his manual labor.
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Prospect Street, Rev Buck's place, in the sunset, on a hill, as I described in my essay...
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Gee, I was still all dreamy over Buck and sunsets, and back to reality! You're fast!
Hiram was at least adventuresome - he went by ship to the Gold Rush out West, early in his life!
Hiram was at least adventuresome - he went by ship to the Gold Rush out West, early in his life!
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Rev Buck from my computer .
I think he had a significant influence upon Emma.
I think he had a significant influence upon Emma.
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
I didn't find Hiram Harrington in Fenner, 1906. I'm still not sure why he is in the Emma thread?
Just quickly, here is more on that supposed Friday night visit of Morse to Hiram's- then maybe he can have his own topic...it's hard jumping around...
It says I thought the supposition came from Brown.
We would need the source, please. The link is no good anymore.
Is there another source? Thanks.
Just quickly, here is more on that supposed Friday night visit of Morse to Hiram's- then maybe he can have his own topic...it's hard jumping around...
It says I thought the supposition came from Brown.
We would need the source, please. The link is no good anymore.
Is there another source? Thanks.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Near the top of this thread, I wrote:
“One of the things I’ve always wondered about Emma is how much family information she shared. She was characterized as retiring, but did she tend to spill the beans? The following people knew a great deal of detail—did they get most of their information from her?
—Alice Russell: mentioned as being closer to Emma than to Lizzie
—John Morse: He said Emma always wrote, and that he knew her better than Lizzie.
—Andrew Jennings: Lizzie accused Emma of giving her away to Jennings.
—Hiram Harrington: He said Emma always visited he and Lurana (Andrew’s sister) at their house, and Lizzie not as often. He and Lizzie voiced antipathy toward each other. He said Andrew and he had hard feelings between them.
Especially with regard to Uncle Hiram, it is difficult to make sense of who would have informed him of granular financial and stock information (see interview below), if not Emma. (One possibility, though, is JVMorse. One of Kat’s posts from many years ago notes that Morse went to Hiram’s street during his 8/5/92 Friday night outing….”
—-Kat, to answer your questioned about how Hiram and Morse wound up in this Emma thread, please see excerpt from my post, above. My first observation was that Emma seems to confide much, and I wondered why, mentioning her confidences to Alice, Jennings, Buck, Morse, and Hiram. Did she tell Lurana and/or Hiram the detailed information seen in Hiram’s interview, for example?
Then, I suggested the other person who might have repeated it to Hiram could have been JVMorse (who also could have first heard it from Emma—or, from Andrew, for that matter). But my point was to remark on this apparent trait of Emma’s, which I have not seen others writers mention. In contrast, at least after the murders, Lizzie seemed to keep her own counsel about most things. Was Lizzie by personality less trusting than Emma? Trying to get at the difference in the sisters’ psychological makeup here…
“One of the things I’ve always wondered about Emma is how much family information she shared. She was characterized as retiring, but did she tend to spill the beans? The following people knew a great deal of detail—did they get most of their information from her?
—Alice Russell: mentioned as being closer to Emma than to Lizzie
—John Morse: He said Emma always wrote, and that he knew her better than Lizzie.
—Andrew Jennings: Lizzie accused Emma of giving her away to Jennings.
—Hiram Harrington: He said Emma always visited he and Lurana (Andrew’s sister) at their house, and Lizzie not as often. He and Lizzie voiced antipathy toward each other. He said Andrew and he had hard feelings between them.
Especially with regard to Uncle Hiram, it is difficult to make sense of who would have informed him of granular financial and stock information (see interview below), if not Emma. (One possibility, though, is JVMorse. One of Kat’s posts from many years ago notes that Morse went to Hiram’s street during his 8/5/92 Friday night outing….”
—-Kat, to answer your questioned about how Hiram and Morse wound up in this Emma thread, please see excerpt from my post, above. My first observation was that Emma seems to confide much, and I wondered why, mentioning her confidences to Alice, Jennings, Buck, Morse, and Hiram. Did she tell Lurana and/or Hiram the detailed information seen in Hiram’s interview, for example?
Then, I suggested the other person who might have repeated it to Hiram could have been JVMorse (who also could have first heard it from Emma—or, from Andrew, for that matter). But my point was to remark on this apparent trait of Emma’s, which I have not seen others writers mention. In contrast, at least after the murders, Lizzie seemed to keep her own counsel about most things. Was Lizzie by personality less trusting than Emma? Trying to get at the difference in the sisters’ psychological makeup here…
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
I do not know of another source beyond Airmid’s mentioning of “Fenner”—and who is “Fenner”? Any help in any of Harry’s (whom Airmid also mentions) research, that you know of?
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PossumPie
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Reading the information about Emma after the murders, I've concluded that she probably was NOT involved nor knew anything about the plan to murder the Bordens. Her simple lifestyle, living as a boarder with other people, the moral focus she had doesn't mesh with an obsession with money. Lizzie went to Europe...why didn't Emma go along? Lizzie's life completely changed (for the better) financially with a huge house, limo, servents, trips to Boston to see shows, etc. In Emma, there is little information that she changed her way of life with the money. I can hear a pre-murder conversation between the sisters with Emma telling Lizzie that she needs to be content where she is, and Lizzie stating that she doesn't want to be content where she is, she wants a large house, frequent trips, luxurious clothes, and huge parties. I wonder if even after the murders, Emma never allowed herself to consider that Lizzie did it. The thought crept into her mind in the middle of the night, but she pushed it away. I bet she never asked because she didn't wish to know. Of course, this is all speculation, but I see no benefit to Emma in the murders.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Yes, thank you, I did read the whole post, twice. It included that long quote from the newspaper. Do you think it says more about Lizzie and Hiram than Emma? Bringing up her relationship with Hiram and Lurana is valid and helpful to rounding out our topic view of Emma.Reasonwhy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:59 am Near the top of this thread, I wrote:
“One of the things I’ve always wondered about Emma is how much family information she shared. She was characterized as retiring, but did she tend to spill the beans? The following people knew a great deal of detail—did they get most of their information from her?
—Alice Russell: mentioned as being closer to Emma than to Lizzie
—John Morse: He said Emma always wrote, and that he knew her better than Lizzie.
—Andrew Jennings: Lizzie accused Emma of giving her away to Jennings.
—Hiram Harrington: He said Emma always visited he and Lurana (Andrew’s sister) at their house, and Lizzie not as often. He and Lizzie voiced antipathy toward each other. He said Andrew and he had hard feelings between them.
Especially with regard to Uncle Hiram, it is difficult to make sense of who would have informed him of granular financial and stock information (see interview below), if not Emma. (One possibility, though, is JVMorse. One of Kat’s posts from many years ago notes that Morse went to Hiram’s street during his 8/5/92 Friday night outing….”
—-Kat, to answer your questioned about how Hiram and Morse wound up in this Emma thread, please see excerpt from my post, above. My first observation was that Emma seems to confide much, and I wondered why, mentioning her confidences to Alice, Jennings, Buck, Morse, and Hiram. Did she tell Lurana and/or Hiram the detailed information seen in Hiram’s interview, for example?
Then, I suggested the other person who might have repeated it to Hiram could have been JVMorse (who also could have first heard it from Emma—or, from Andrew, for that matter). But my point was to remark on this apparent trait of Emma’s, which I have not seen others writers mention. In contrast, at least after the murders, Lizzie seemed to keep her own counsel about most things. Was Lizzie by personality less trusting than Emma? Trying to get at the difference in the sisters’ psychological makeup here…
Was I referring to Brown, the author, as to a meeting between the uncles? I guess it seems out of context, and has confused me.
You are really the best at searching the Forum.
(Do you all know how to copy/paste a link to an earlier original discussion?) I think that would be helpful, bring context, and then we can 'suppose' from there.
Just go to the top of your server page address, highlight it, select all, copy, then bring it to the posting box and paste there. I prefer to read the whole thing, I really do, is that possible? And it's great you'all do read the earlier posts!
--my edits and revisions reflect my confusion concerning the "Airmid" references / plz excuse-
I did try to verify in the book by Fenner remarks about Hiram Harrington. There may be 2 reference books by Fenner
Last edited by Kat on Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
This is Fenner. I think it may now be a downloadable book. I bought my copy, along with Earl, at the FRHS, 2004 ish?
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Well, I'm still looking for a reference to Hiram...
Here is Fenner, 1906, pg 151, Hiram Harrington as "Councilman" in the early 1860's. BTW: the list, over the years, is HUGE. It might help to know what the position entailed.
Here is Fenner, 1906, pg 151, Hiram Harrington as "Councilman" in the early 1860's. BTW: the list, over the years, is HUGE. It might help to know what the position entailed.
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Here is the citation for this claim:
viewtopic.php?t=6379&p=101841
I really don't remember the Mason reference, sorry.
That's all I have toward verification of Hiram Harrington's credentials.
I do have a clip of the census where he is listed as "blacksmith" if anyone wants that?
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Kat, I do not remember having seen this post of yours, from 2004, that you re-print here, mentioning Brown. I am not sure what you were responding to, or even what thread it is in. The posts that I re-printed above were all from the "Iron or Lead?" thread, written from July-August, 2006.Kat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:13 am I didn't find Hiram Harrington in Fenner, 1906. I'm still not sure why he is in the Emma thread?
Just quickly, here is more on that supposed Friday night visit of Morse to Hiram's- then maybe he can have his own topic...it's hard jumping around...
It says I thought the supposition came from Brown.
We would need the source, please. The link is no good anymore.
Is there another source? Thanks.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2138&hilit=Iron+Lead
Above is the link to the "Iron or Lead?" thread, which includes the Airmid and Kat posts I re-printed, among many others. Happy to provide it.
--A link is the easiest way to find a thread, certainly.
--A thread can also be reached by entering its most important words into the general search box. That is a method that involves just a bit more searching.
--One can also find someone's posts by clicking (at the top of any their posts) on that poster's name. Having the date of the post helps, but one can also use keywords to search within all of that poster's posts.
So, lots of ways to find things on the forum. If, in posting, one includes the poster's name, the date of posting, and the name of the thread, as I did above, it is not hard to find the entire thread discussion, if a reader is interested in reading that. Also helpful to have the link, if we remember to post it.
Above is the link to the "Iron or Lead?" thread, which includes the Airmid and Kat posts I re-printed, among many others. Happy to provide it.
--A link is the easiest way to find a thread, certainly.
--A thread can also be reached by entering its most important words into the general search box. That is a method that involves just a bit more searching.
--One can also find someone's posts by clicking (at the top of any their posts) on that poster's name. Having the date of the post helps, but one can also use keywords to search within all of that poster's posts.
So, lots of ways to find things on the forum. If, in posting, one includes the poster's name, the date of posting, and the name of the thread, as I did above, it is not hard to find the entire thread discussion, if a reader is interested in reading that. Also helpful to have the link, if we remember to post it.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Once again, The Jennings Journals save us with their newly printed information! Hiram is in Glossary A, p. 404:Kat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:06 pmHere is the citation for this claim:
viewtopic.php?t=6379&p=101841
I really don't remember the Mason reference, sorry.
That's all I have toward verification of Hiram Harrington's credentials.
I do have a clip of the census where he is listed as "blacksmith" if anyone wants that?
"HARRINGTON, HIRAM C. 1829-1907: born in East Greenwich, Rhode Island, son of George C. (1798-1883) and Marcy A. (nee Green) Harrington (1802-1877). In 1849, at the age of twenty, he traveled to California to mine for gold. He settled in Fall River and, in 1854, married Miss Lurana Borden (1828-1898) of that city, the sister of Andrew J. Borden. Employed as a blacksmith, he operated a shop at Fourth and Borden Streets. He served on the Fall River City Council for two terms, once in 1860 and again in 1864. As a machinist, he was employed at the Crystal Spring Bleachery in Assonet, Massachusetts, from 1885-1888. He served as high priest for the Royal Arch Chapter of the Masons. He died at his residence in Fall River in 1907 of organic valvular disease of the heart. He is buried in Oak Gove Cemetery in that city. Questioned at the inquest and summoned as a witness for the trial before the superior court, he was not called upon to testify."
(Bolding after Hiram's name is mine, Reasonwhy's)
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Kat, searched and found your post from 2004, above!Reasonwhy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:31 pmKat, I do not remember having seen this post of yours, from 2004, that you re-print here, mentioning Brown. I am not sure what you were responding to, or even what thread it is in. The posts that I re-printed above were all from the "Iron or Lead?" thread, written from July-August, 2006.Kat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:13 am I didn't find Hiram Harrington in Fenner, 1906. I'm still not sure why he is in the Emma thread?
Just quickly, here is more on that supposed Friday night visit of Morse to Hiram's- then maybe he can have his own topic...it's hard jumping around...
It says I thought the supposition came from Brown.
We would need the source, please. The link is no good anymore.
Is there another source? Thanks.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=292&hilit=Uncle+Joh ... directions
In that thread, "Uncle John needs directions," your post of Tue., July 27, 2004 also briefly mentions Brown. I won't include that quote here, as those interested can click on the link and read the entire discussion.
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Thanks for the links, the sourced bio, and explanation
What I was responding to was the long news article at the beginning of this thread about Hiram, and also this next statement:
Partial by you in box and made partial by me, about a possible visit of Morse to Hiram Friday night.
That is where my confusion started and why I wanted it to be clear it might have come from author Brown, not me.
What I was responding to was the long news article at the beginning of this thread about Hiram, and also this next statement:
Partial by you in box and made partial by me, about a possible visit of Morse to Hiram Friday night.
That is where my confusion started and why I wanted it to be clear it might have come from author Brown, not me.
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
I did not understand that your entire post of Sunday, Feb 6th, 1:02 am, was a copy paste of two other posts from the past, and not you at all, Reasonwhy
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PossumPie
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
From the news article in my original post, It appears like Emma was hiding from Lizzie. I don't know how much truth there is in that, an 18-year-old delivery boy asked by a lawyer not to tell Emma's location? Sounds strange. If true, why would Emma worry Lizzie would take her money? They both had more than they could spend and Emma apparently wasn't spending much of her share anyway. Perhaps it was an excuse for some other reason Emma didn't want Lizzie to know where she lived...
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
I do think Emma figured out Lizzie was the culprit very early on. This quick process of deduction began on murder day itself. One of the two questions Emma asked Bridget upon her return to the house was quite revealing. One question was if she would stay with them (Bridget answered, “No”). The other question, though, suggests much. Emma asked if there had been a note delivered that morning.
As Lizzie had already told all at the scene that there had been such a note delivered for Abby, this can be read as Emma checking up on Lizzie’s truthfulness. It is doubt expressed early, on the very day of the crime. And think of the status of the person she is asking: the (Irish, immigrant) servant! So, her sister’s word was not enough for her. Bridget’s answer, that she did not see the note or hear it being delivered, cannot have reassured Emma.
Continuing events (the dress burning, etc.) had to have added to Emma’s doubt. Did Emma ever let this idea of Lizzie’s guilt fully rise from her subconscious to active expression? I think Emma was in a state of, let’s call it, “willful denial.” Since she did not have all of the facts (I’m not sure Lizzie ever confessed to her; if she did, I think the most likely time would have been in 1905, causing Emma to finally leave Maplecroft), Emma “decided” to believe in Lizzie’s innocence, or at least, to behave as if she did.
Lizzie probably realized all this, but kept up her part of the fiction by repeating her innocence whenever Emma’s denial would weaken and she would begin again to question Lizzie--see The Hatchet’s treatment of Emma’s 1913 interview: https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... -post.html
Emma may have shared Lizzie’s conviction that Abby and Andrew deserved it, or at least felt sympathy for whatever was wrong with Lizzie that caused her to actually kill them. However, feelings about the homicides probably clashed between the two and caused deep resentment on both sides:
—Lizzie may have felt she had done both herself and Emma an enormous favor, and that she had risked all for both of them by doing what her sister would never have had the will to do. She may have seen Emma as an ingrate, a hypocrite, or both.
—Emma, by contrast, may have felt cursed and horrified by Lizzie’s murders and all the suffering for Emma that came in the aftermath. I see her turn to religion, which she had never sought refuge in before, as contrition for both of them: for Emma’s own faults in mothering Lizzie, and for Lizzie’s criminal actions. Emma may have felt Lizzie had ruined Emma's life by adding an ultimately unendurable burden to Emma's pledge to their dying mother to support Lizzie.
As Lizzie had already told all at the scene that there had been such a note delivered for Abby, this can be read as Emma checking up on Lizzie’s truthfulness. It is doubt expressed early, on the very day of the crime. And think of the status of the person she is asking: the (Irish, immigrant) servant! So, her sister’s word was not enough for her. Bridget’s answer, that she did not see the note or hear it being delivered, cannot have reassured Emma.
Continuing events (the dress burning, etc.) had to have added to Emma’s doubt. Did Emma ever let this idea of Lizzie’s guilt fully rise from her subconscious to active expression? I think Emma was in a state of, let’s call it, “willful denial.” Since she did not have all of the facts (I’m not sure Lizzie ever confessed to her; if she did, I think the most likely time would have been in 1905, causing Emma to finally leave Maplecroft), Emma “decided” to believe in Lizzie’s innocence, or at least, to behave as if she did.
Lizzie probably realized all this, but kept up her part of the fiction by repeating her innocence whenever Emma’s denial would weaken and she would begin again to question Lizzie--see The Hatchet’s treatment of Emma’s 1913 interview: https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... -post.html
Emma may have shared Lizzie’s conviction that Abby and Andrew deserved it, or at least felt sympathy for whatever was wrong with Lizzie that caused her to actually kill them. However, feelings about the homicides probably clashed between the two and caused deep resentment on both sides:
—Lizzie may have felt she had done both herself and Emma an enormous favor, and that she had risked all for both of them by doing what her sister would never have had the will to do. She may have seen Emma as an ingrate, a hypocrite, or both.
—Emma, by contrast, may have felt cursed and horrified by Lizzie’s murders and all the suffering for Emma that came in the aftermath. I see her turn to religion, which she had never sought refuge in before, as contrition for both of them: for Emma’s own faults in mothering Lizzie, and for Lizzie’s criminal actions. Emma may have felt Lizzie had ruined Emma's life by adding an ultimately unendurable burden to Emma's pledge to their dying mother to support Lizzie.
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camgarsky4
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Interesting call out on when Emma became more involved with religious influences. Do we know anything of her pre-murder religious opinions?
I think we know where Buck sat in the courtroom....have to see if Emma was anywhere near him or others of his persuasion. That might be an interesting tidbit.
Reason -- I am away from my sources, but I think it would be interesting and potentially informative to dig into the Buck relationship with Emma and/or Lizzie. Did both sisters go to same church? Was Buck minister of that church? and so on.......see if these trails lead anything intriguing.
I think we know where Buck sat in the courtroom....have to see if Emma was anywhere near him or others of his persuasion. That might be an interesting tidbit.
Reason -- I am away from my sources, but I think it would be interesting and potentially informative to dig into the Buck relationship with Emma and/or Lizzie. Did both sisters go to same church? Was Buck minister of that church? and so on.......see if these trails lead anything intriguing.
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PossumPie
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Picture from "The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook" by David Kent:
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"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Kat
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
There's a strange reference in JJ, page 42, that I've not seen yet referred to here.
(I did a word search on the Forum for Poison and for chloroform).
The notes, by Jennings himself, state, (and I've copied it exactly, and thinking the editor might have put those identifiers into brackets without the italics, just as I've reproduced here):
"Chloroform E [Emma] says L [Lizzie] got it at her request of Riddell [Benjamin F. Riddel Jr., apothecary, 8 Granite Block] that she went up before she went to Fairhaven & it had all evaporated.
(Making sense of the continuous reference to the "she" pronoun- I think it's both "shes"- first she= Lizzie, second she = Emma.)
This is seemingly Emma telling Jennings that she herself wanted chloroform before her trip to Fairhaven, that Lizzie got it for her, but by the time she Emma, got to, or was in Fairhaven, it had evaporated.
This is so odd. It could be Emma trying to offset the scrutiny of suspicion of "poisioning" that had only targeted Lizzie...it could be part of a plan of Emma's for anything she was contemplating doing in Fairhaven (maybe it killed mice or something
)... it could even be part of a tale she told Jennings to make up for the "you've given me away" imbroglio that blew up supposedly at the jail in front of Matron Reagan...
Open to interpretations, here....
(I did a word search on the Forum for Poison and for chloroform).
The notes, by Jennings himself, state, (and I've copied it exactly, and thinking the editor might have put those identifiers into brackets without the italics, just as I've reproduced here):
"Chloroform E [Emma] says L [Lizzie] got it at her request of Riddell [Benjamin F. Riddel Jr., apothecary, 8 Granite Block] that she went up before she went to Fairhaven & it had all evaporated.
(Making sense of the continuous reference to the "she" pronoun- I think it's both "shes"- first she= Lizzie, second she = Emma.)
This is seemingly Emma telling Jennings that she herself wanted chloroform before her trip to Fairhaven, that Lizzie got it for her, but by the time she Emma, got to, or was in Fairhaven, it had evaporated.
This is so odd. It could be Emma trying to offset the scrutiny of suspicion of "poisioning" that had only targeted Lizzie...it could be part of a plan of Emma's for anything she was contemplating doing in Fairhaven (maybe it killed mice or something
)... it could even be part of a tale she told Jennings to make up for the "you've given me away" imbroglio that blew up supposedly at the jail in front of Matron Reagan... Open to interpretations, here....
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PossumPie
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Addressing the uses of chloroform in the 1890s, it was rarely used in medicine in the U.S.A. Europe had used it more extensively as a replacement anesthetic for ether, but it was more dangerous and people were dying on the operating table. It was used as a pesticide, but it is volatile and evaporates quickly. Emma's mention that it had all evaporated away is accurate. It could be used as a murder weapon, but crime fiction's use of it as such is inaccurate. One must saturate a rag in chloroform and hold it over a person's face for several minutes before they become unconscious. It does NOT work quickly like in pulp fiction crime novels.Kat wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:27 am There's a strange reference in JJ, page 42, that I've not seen yet referred to here.
(I did a word search on the Forum for Poison and for chloroform).
The notes, by Jennings himself, state, (and I've copied it exactly, and thinking the editor might have put those identifiers into brackets without the italics, just as I've reproduced here):
"Chloroform E [Emma] says L [Lizzie] got it at her request of Riddell [Benjamin F. Riddel Jr., apothecary, 8 Granite Block] that she went up before she went to Fairhaven & it had all evaporated.
(Making sense of the continuous reference to the "she" pronoun- I think it's both "shes"- first she= Lizzie, second she = Emma.)
This is seemingly Emma telling Jennings that she herself wanted chloroform before her trip to Fairhaven, that Lizzie got it for her, but by the time she Emma, got to, or was in Fairhaven, it had evaporated.
This is so odd. It could be Emma trying to offset the scrutiny of suspicion of "poisioning" that had only targeted Lizzie...it could be part of a plan of Emma's for anything she was contemplating doing in Fairhaven (maybe it killed mice or something
Open to interpretations, here....
What puzzles me is that if Lizzie indeed did purchase Chloroform at Riddel's drug store just prior to the murders, why was this not disclosed? Every other rumor of her trying to purchase poison was bandied about, but the actual purchase was never mentioned? The clerk at Riddle's certainly would have come forth. I tend to think that the statement was Emma trying to help by making up a story. Even the timing doesn't make sense, who goes visiting friends and buys poison just in case there might be a mouse?
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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camgarsky4
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
My interpretation of the JJ notation is that Lizzie bought it for Emma before Emma's visit to Fair Haven. And that it evaporated before the trip also.
This does sound a bit like Emma providing a cover for Lizzie, which means this particular pharmacy stop was being openly discussed at least amongst the family and defense team. Chloroform might not kill quickly, but it might incapacitate, thus enabling other means of dispatching someone.
Adds a potentially intriguing component to the whole poison approach.
This does sound a bit like Emma providing a cover for Lizzie, which means this particular pharmacy stop was being openly discussed at least amongst the family and defense team. Chloroform might not kill quickly, but it might incapacitate, thus enabling other means of dispatching someone.
Adds a potentially intriguing component to the whole poison approach.
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Jess_humandisaster
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Sorry to just randomly jump in here, but is it possible that Lizzie shoplifted chloroform from Riddel's without anyone ever realizing it, but she wasn't aware that it would evaporate way before she could use it?
Maybe with all the pharmacists talking to the police, she thought her theft was about to be uncovered, so she told Emma about it, claiming she was going to use it for some innocent or explainable reason, and made sure to emphasize how worried she was that everyone would find out and how guilty it could make her look to others.
Then Emma kinda jumped the gun by telling Jennings, "She got chloroform because I asked her to." even though the missing chloroform was never mentioned or noticed.
Maybe with all the pharmacists talking to the police, she thought her theft was about to be uncovered, so she told Emma about it, claiming she was going to use it for some innocent or explainable reason, and made sure to emphasize how worried she was that everyone would find out and how guilty it could make her look to others.
Then Emma kinda jumped the gun by telling Jennings, "She got chloroform because I asked her to." even though the missing chloroform was never mentioned or noticed.
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camgarsky4
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Jess -- please jump in anytime!! 
Are you mentioning theft because no other report of this purchase has surfaced and the pharmacist not knowing about it would be explained that way? Do you see that stealing vs. buying might change how we view the chloroform info?
Are you mentioning theft because no other report of this purchase has surfaced and the pharmacist not knowing about it would be explained that way? Do you see that stealing vs. buying might change how we view the chloroform info?
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Jess_humandisaster
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Yes! Emma mentioning Lizzie getting chloroform for her really is strange, as nothing seemed to come of it and there's no indication for why it was even brought up.
But if Lizzie really did buy chloroform not long before the murders, then wouldn't any of the pharmacists who were able to recall her attempted purchase of prussic acid remember her making a successful purchase of a powerful anesthetic?
So I wonder if Lizzie did obtain chloroform through shady means, then just never got to use it due to it evaporating and had to come up with something else. And Emma, in an attempt to help, took responsibility for it when maybe it was never even brought up by the police or pharmacists, so Jennings didn't say anything about it either.
But if Lizzie really did buy chloroform not long before the murders, then wouldn't any of the pharmacists who were able to recall her attempted purchase of prussic acid remember her making a successful purchase of a powerful anesthetic?
So I wonder if Lizzie did obtain chloroform through shady means, then just never got to use it due to it evaporating and had to come up with something else. And Emma, in an attempt to help, took responsibility for it when maybe it was never even brought up by the police or pharmacists, so Jennings didn't say anything about it either.
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PossumPie
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Jess, welcome! Your hypothesis is a very good one. I can't understand why if Lizzie actually bought chloroform days/a week before the murders that nobody remembered it. Stealing it might be the answer. Since Emma disclosed it to Lizzie's attorney, I wonder if Lizzie was scared that the bottles would be discovered at the house. They must have disposed of them before the search.Jess_humandisaster wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:45 pm Yes! Emma mentioning Lizzie getting chloroform for her really is strange, as nothing seemed to come of it and there's no indication for why it was even brought up.
But if Lizzie really did buy chloroform not long before the murders, then wouldn't any of the pharmacists who were able to recall her attempted purchase of prussic acid remember her making a successful purchase of a powerful anesthetic?
So I wonder if Lizzie did obtain chloroform through shady means, then just never got to use it due to it evaporating and had to come up with something else. And Emma, in an attempt to help, took responsibility for it when maybe it was never even brought up by the police or pharmacists, so Jennings didn't say anything about it either.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Jess_humandisaster
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Thank you!PossumPie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:26 pm
Jess, welcome! Your hypothesis is a very good one. I can't understand why if Lizzie actually bought chloroform days/a week before the murders that nobody remembered it. Stealing it might be the answer. Since Emma disclosed it to Lizzie's attorney, I wonder if Lizzie was scared that the bottles would be discovered at the house. They must have disposed of them before the search.
If Lizzie did steal chloroform, maybe she was worried that the investigations into her attempts to buy prussic acid would lead the relevant pharmacist to recall that some chloroform went missing around the same time span she had been in the pharmacy, thus making them see the connection and start digging deeper.
Though if Lizzie disposed of the bottle properly, there really was no way to prove she was the thief, not without witnesses. The effects that the implications could have on her case, or the potential of police finding other incriminating evidence if they kept digging, could have still had her panicking a bit though, hence Emma's willingness to take the blame by telling Jennings that she was the one who wanted chloroform and Lizzie was just following directions.
Only the prussic acid got brought up but I think Lizzie still could have stolen chloroform and gotten away with it, if, say, the pharmacy in question didn't keep track of their inventory very well, or if the employees had assumed someone else was the thief, like some well-known town rascal.
I wonder how easy or difficult it was to steal from a pharmacy/apothecary at that time.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Possum, found this post of yours, with news item about Lizzie’s earlier purchase of chloroform to kill a cat. This is a partial post:
User avatarPossumPie
Re: Did Lizzie buy Prussic Acid ?
Report Quote
Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:45 am
“….The most verified attempt to buy poison is documented in the trail records (for many pages) by Eli Bence. The second most verified attempt was the interview of Mr. Brow of Brow's drug store who while talking to a Herald reporter mentioned the purchase of poison 4 years previously ostensibly to kill a cat:
‘It was claimed Lizzie made a second attempt to purchase prussic acid at Walter J. Brow's Drug Store at 62 Second St. A Boston Herald reporter interviewed Mr. Brow to verify the rumor. Mr. Brow said Lizzie traded at his store and had known Lizzie for the past twenty years. He assured the reporter Lizzie did not purchase any prussic acid. He recalled that Lizzie stopped trading at his store about four years ago. Her last purchase was chloroform, stating she wanted it for the purpose of killing a cat. Mr. Brow states Miss Borden asked for the stuff in rather a surly manner, and he answered just as saucily. Miss Borden paid for the chloroform and went out. She has never been in the shop since.’
(Boston Herald, August 8, 1982: 2.)”
Reasonwhy here: Thanks for finding this, Possum. So, we know Lizzie did purchase chloroform in the past, and, presumably, used it to kill the cat. That means she had prior experience in its use.
User avatarPossumPie
Re: Did Lizzie buy Prussic Acid ?
Report Quote
Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:45 am
“….The most verified attempt to buy poison is documented in the trail records (for many pages) by Eli Bence. The second most verified attempt was the interview of Mr. Brow of Brow's drug store who while talking to a Herald reporter mentioned the purchase of poison 4 years previously ostensibly to kill a cat:
‘It was claimed Lizzie made a second attempt to purchase prussic acid at Walter J. Brow's Drug Store at 62 Second St. A Boston Herald reporter interviewed Mr. Brow to verify the rumor. Mr. Brow said Lizzie traded at his store and had known Lizzie for the past twenty years. He assured the reporter Lizzie did not purchase any prussic acid. He recalled that Lizzie stopped trading at his store about four years ago. Her last purchase was chloroform, stating she wanted it for the purpose of killing a cat. Mr. Brow states Miss Borden asked for the stuff in rather a surly manner, and he answered just as saucily. Miss Borden paid for the chloroform and went out. She has never been in the shop since.’
(Boston Herald, August 8, 1982: 2.)”
Reasonwhy here: Thanks for finding this, Possum. So, we know Lizzie did purchase chloroform in the past, and, presumably, used it to kill the cat. That means she had prior experience in its use.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5267&hilit=chloroform
The above is a link to the thread "What if Abby were already dead BEFORE the hatchet blows?" Its discussion fleshes out theories about the possible use of chloroform to partially subdue or even completely kill the elder Bordens before the hatchet was used.
The above is a link to the thread "What if Abby were already dead BEFORE the hatchet blows?" Its discussion fleshes out theories about the possible use of chloroform to partially subdue or even completely kill the elder Bordens before the hatchet was used.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Clever thinking, Jess! I could see Lizzie pilfering chloroform to stay anonymous. She could have stolen a hatchet for the same reasons. Maybe Lizzie shoplifted chloroform, a hatchet, and arsenic, to cover all of her bases, just in case...Jess_humandisaster wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:37 pmThank you!PossumPie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:26 pm
Jess, welcome! Your hypothesis is a very good one. I can't understand why if Lizzie actually bought chloroform days/a week before the murders that nobody remembered it. Stealing it might be the answer. Since Emma disclosed it to Lizzie's attorney, I wonder if Lizzie was scared that the bottles would be discovered at the house. They must have disposed of them before the search.
If Lizzie did steal chloroform, maybe she was worried that the investigations into her attempts to buy prussic acid would lead the relevant pharmacist to recall that some chloroform went missing around the same time span she had been in the pharmacy, thus making them see the connection and start digging deeper.
Though if Lizzie disposed of the bottle properly, there really was no way to prove she was the thief, not without witnesses. The effects that the implications could have on her case, or the potential of police finding other incriminating evidence if they kept digging, could have still had her panicking a bit though, hence Emma's willingness to take the blame by telling Jennings that she was the one who wanted chloroform and Lizzie was just following directions.
Only the prussic acid got brought up but I think Lizzie still could have stolen chloroform and gotten away with it, if, say, the pharmacy in question didn't keep track of their inventory very well, or if the employees had assumed someone else was the thief, like some well-known town rascal.
I wonder how easy or difficult it was to steal from a pharmacy/apothecary at that time.
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Jess_humandisaster
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Thanks! I very much agree that the arsenic (or whatever poison it was that made Andrew and Abby so sick), was likely to have been shoplifted as well! It's possible of course that Emma did ask Lizzie to procur chloroform for her, but unless she was involved in planning the murders, I can't imagine what reason she would have wanted it for, especially while she was in Fairhaven visiting friends. It really just seems to me like a possible instance of Lizzie using Emma's belief in her innocence to manipulate her into helping cover up things Lizzie did that could be "misconstrued" by all those mean people out to get her.
I also definitely think that Lizzie swiped the murder weapon from somewhere too. If she'd bought one or borrowed one, you'd think there would have been at least one witness that would have remembered that and come forward. A well-to-do woman buying a hatchet/axe probably wasn't a very common occurrence either, and even if witnesses didn't know her name or who she was at the time of purchase, her picture, and information about the case, was all over the newspapers for months.
Heck, everyone in Massachusetts who sold hatchets, axes, medicines/poisons, etc. at that time probably had a moment where they tried to recall every female customer they'd ever had, wondering if one of them had been Lizzie Borden.
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Reasonwhy
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Re: What do we know about Emma?
Thinking about this some more, I wonder if Emma would have revealed the name of the pharmacy to Jennings if Emma knew Lizzie stole the chloroform. Emma might have expected that Jennings would check up on the purchase…if she did, that reduces the chances Emma would have either 1) fabricated the story or 2) passed it along to Jennings at all.
Probably, Emma giving that drugstore’s name means Lizzie actually bought it, and Emma wanted to make it look like an innocuous purchase by falsely claiming it was for Emma.
I wonder if records were kept of chloroform purchases? Maybe not, if it was commonly used. Had I been Jennings, I might not want to check with the pharmacy for fear of causing the clerks to recall a purchase much better left forgotten. Was this another stroke of luck for Lizzie, that the prosecution did not hear of this purchase?
Probably, Emma giving that drugstore’s name means Lizzie actually bought it, and Emma wanted to make it look like an innocuous purchase by falsely claiming it was for Emma.
I wonder if records were kept of chloroform purchases? Maybe not, if it was commonly used. Had I been Jennings, I might not want to check with the pharmacy for fear of causing the clerks to recall a purchase much better left forgotten. Was this another stroke of luck for Lizzie, that the prosecution did not hear of this purchase?