Bloodless Emma

[Mara]

I don't understand why Emma insisted on staying at the Second St house, actually. To stay in a house where your father and stepmother have been horribly butchered, a place with a mutilated Brussels carpet in the sitting room and various other fittings in police hands, just seems to me to be bizarre. Wasn't the very couch on Andrew was murdered sent to be reupholstered at some stage?
Surely to goodness, no-one could have WANTED to have stayed in the house for sentimental reasons. Emma could have stayed with friends or relatives, or if she didn't want to impose, a room in a boarding house convenient for visiting her sister.
If she had locked up the Second St house and left, at least until after the trial, I don't think anyone would have blamed her. Emma could have just intimated to Church friends etc that she wished to stay near her sister to support her in her ordeal, or alternatively that she just couldn't bear to stay in the old home any longer.

Curryong posted the above observation in another thread active today and I felt it was worth its own thread. We've often commented on Emma's penchant for simplicity, for starkness, little unassuming rooms and all that. Her testimony reads today (to some of us, anyway) like that of a remarkably calm, unemotional woman. Her demeanor throughout the more dramatic phases of the Borden story makes her later decision to leave Maplecroft seem almost shockingly passionate. And then, we have the behavior Curryong touches upon in her post. So, kids: What about this Emma Borden person? What's your take on her?

[Curryong]

I think Emma was probably a mixture, as we all are. She was absolutely devoted to Lizzie, and was liked by other relatives such as the Gardners. She seems to have otherwise been extremely reserved, almost cut-off from human emotion. When faced with Andrew's corpse late on that Thursday there seems to have been little outwardly-exhibited sorrow. No floods of tears. Perhaps displays of that sort would have been considered vulgar, I don't know.
As she and Lizzie never spoke again after Emma left Maplecroft what drove them apart must have been massive but I doubt somehow that it had to do with the murder so many years before. Emma appears to have been very restrained and prim and proper and the two women probably irritated each other over the years.
To me Emma is quite an enigma of the still waters run deep kind, and I've never really been able to get a handle on her, so to speak. I don't believe that she gave that interview in old age, by the way. To speak about family matters and her sister to a newspaper person would have been anathema, I think.

[Catbooks]

i agree with curryong. emma strikes me as having taken after her stoic father. far more so than lizzie! who wasn't a bit stoic. despite emma's devotion, i think that's what ultimately was the undoing between them. they were so very different.

lizzie was reckless, wanted the finer things in life, to go out in the world and *live* life, in the way she thought she ought to be able to do.

emma was the opposite, content with her lot in life, with very modest desires and decidedly not reckless.

i wonder how it would have been had there been no lizzie, no promise to her dying mother to take care of baby lizzie. i doubt she'd have minded a bit the house and their lifestyle being lived below their means. she might have still resented abby coming into the household and in ways taking her place, but i think she'd have gotten over that quickly enough, and all would have been well.

andrew probably would have evenly split his money and holdings between them, and there wouldn't have been the seething resentment.

i tend to think emma wouldn't have given that interview either, unless she felt she needed to step out of the shadows to protect lizzie. again.

[debbiediablo]

i agree with curryong. emma strikes me as having taken after her stoic father. far more so than lizzie! who wasn't a bit stoic. despite emma's devotion, i think that's what ultimately was the undoing between them. they were so very different.

lizzie was reckless, wanted the finer things in life, to go out in the world and *live* life, in the way she thought she ought to be able to do.

emma was the opposite, content with her lot in life, with very modest desires and decidedly not reckless.

i wonder how it would have been had there been no lizzie, no promise to her dying mother to take care of baby lizzie. i doubt she'd have minded a bit the house and their lifestyle being lived below their means. she might have still resented abby coming into the household and in ways taking her place, but i think she'd have gotten over that quickly enough, and all would have been well.

andrew probably would have evenly split his money and holdings between them, and there wouldn't have been the seething resentment.

i tend to think emma wouldn't have given that interview either, unless she felt she needed to step out of the shadows to protect lizzie. again.

I see Lizzie as has having some stoic aspects to her character: She held up during her incarceration. She settled on The Hill and stayed there all of her life despite being ostracized by most of the community. She could have fled to another state or another country. She could have changed her name to 'Elizabeth Smith' and lived anonymously ever after. For whatever reasons, Emma left instead when the situation became "unbearable." The major difference I see between them is Emma was repressed, and Lizzie acted out.

I do wonder about Sarah's charge to Emma to take care of Lizzie. That's a huge burden for young child. No matter how much Emma may have been devoted to Lizzie, there would have been anger and resentment about a childhood bereft of her own mother and lost to mothering a little sister. When Abby comes on the scene she both lifts responsibility from Emma's shoulders and displaces her role as Lizzie's mother and possibly as the familial female authority figure in the house. Then I have to wonder how much of Lizzie's relationship with Abby was fueled, deliberately or otherwise, by Emma's attitude.

Did Lizzie do in reality what Emma only fantasized?

[Curryong]

I was very much struck by your last sentence, Debbiediablo. Lizzie may very well have done what Emma only dreamed of! By the way, I see your signature is from a story about the master of detection, Sherlock Holmes. Are you an admirer of the Great Man?

[debbiediablo]

I'm an admirer of critical thinking...

[Catbooks]

i agree with curryong. emma strikes me as having taken after her stoic father. far more so than lizzie! who wasn't a bit stoic. despite emma's devotion, i think that's what ultimately was the undoing between them. they were so very different.

lizzie was reckless, wanted the finer things in life, to go out in the world and *live* life, in the way she thought she ought to be able to do.

emma was the opposite, content with her lot in life, with very modest desires and decidedly not reckless.

i wonder how it would have been had there been no lizzie, no promise to her dying mother to take care of baby lizzie. i doubt she'd have minded a bit the house and their lifestyle being lived below their means. she might have still resented abby coming into the household and in ways taking her place, but i think she'd have gotten over that quickly enough, and all would have been well.

andrew probably would have evenly split his money and holdings between them, and there wouldn't have been the seething resentment.

i tend to think emma wouldn't have given that interview either, unless she felt she needed to step out of the shadows to protect lizzie. again.

I see Lizzie as has having some stoic aspects to her character: She held up during her incarceration. She settled on The Hill and stayed there all of her life despite being ostracized by most of the community. She could have fled to another state or another country. She could have changed her name to 'Elizabeth Smith' and lived anonymously ever after. For whatever reasons, Emma left instead when the situation became "unbearable." The major difference I see between them is Emma was repressed, and Lizzie acted out.

I do wonder about Sarah's charge to Emma to take care of Lizzie. That's a huge burden for young child. No matter how much Emma may have been devoted to Lizzie, there would have been anger and resentment about a childhood bereft of her own mother and lost to mothering a little sister. When Abby comes on the scene she both lifts responsibility from Emma's shoulders and displaces her role as Lizzie's mother and possibly as the familial female authority figure in the house. Then I have to wonder how much of Lizzie's relationship with Abby was fueled, deliberately or otherwise, by Emma's attitude.

Did Lizzie do in reality what Emma only fantasized?

i suppose she held up well enough while being incarcerated, but she didn't have much choice about it! that was, though, when she was prescribed the morphine, to calm her nerves because she had insomnia the first week. she was also brought food from outside, and had a lot more comforts there most people wouldn't. i can see some stoicism in her during the trial.

as far as her not leaving fall river, i attribute that to stubbornness rather than stoicism, although there is a certain amount of stoicism in stubbornness. i see her staying there as 'dammit i WILL have that house on the hill, i WILL be accepted by the people i'd always felt i was one of.' oops. i think she also probably thought if she moved, she'd be admitting guilt.

i do think you're spot-on about emma being repressed and lizzie acting out, and that emma played a very large part in lizzie's feelings towards abby.

[Curryong]

Dr Bowen's telegram to Emma on the day of the tragedies is stamped 11:32am. Even if we say it took an hour for the telegram to reach Emma at the Brownells' house in Fairhaven (which would be very slow) Emma didn't leave on a New Bedford train for Weir Junction to return to Fall River (by a rather circuitous route) until 3:40 pm.
She finally arrived in Fall River at 5pm. The distance between Fairhaven and Fall River is about 15 miles. I don't know about you but if I was told of terrible trouble at home I'd be rushing home as soon as possible. Emma seems to have been putting off the inevitable for as long as possible.

[Catbooks]

i wish we knew what the telegram said. it'd be another piece for us to put under the microscope and speculate about the wording.

in watching the elizabeth montgomery tv movie last night, they portrayed emma as a far less tight-lipped and new englandy sort of person than i'd been envisioning her. which made me wonder why i have this picture of emma in my head. all we have to go on are the few photos of her, some of her words (testimony, some letters), and some of her actions. about same as anyone else involved, of course, but yet emma remains foggier than most. to me.

unless there was some legit reason for her taking that long-route 3:40 train (i don't know either way), it does look like she was buying herself some time to think.

if i put myself in emma's place, which i admit is kind of difficult, i'd think my main concern at that point would be rushing to my (innocent) sister's side to comfort and support her. my father would already be dead and past any help. abby i wouldn't care so much about anyway. on top of wanting to rush to my sister's side in general, i'd have been keenly aware of my dead mother's charge to me to look after lizzie. i'd have felt i'd failed by being off on a two-week trip.

if, on the other hand, i had reason to suspect her of doing the deeds, oh god knows what i'd be thinking! again guilt about having left her alone with abby and andrew. or if i hated abby so much, and was upset with my father and worried he might leave everything (or too much?) to abby when he died, perhaps some relief?

[debbiediablo]

i wish we knew what the telegram said. it'd be another piece for us to put under the microscope and speculate about the wording.

in watching the elizabeth montgomery tv movie last night, they portrayed emma as a far less tight-lipped and new englandy sort of person than i'd been envisioning her. which made me wonder why i have this picture of emma in my head. all we have to go on are the few photos of her, some of her words (testimony, some letters), and some of her actions. about same as anyone else involved, of course, but yet emma remains foggier than most. to me.

unless there was some legit reason for her taking that long-route 3:40 train (i don't know either way), it does look like she was buying herself some time to think.

if i put myself in emma's place, which i admit is kind of difficult, i'd think my main concern at that point would be rushing to my (innocent) sister's side to comfort and support her. my father would already be dead and past any help. abby i wouldn't care so much about anyway. on top of wanting to rush to my sister's side in general, i'd have been keenly aware of my dead mother's charge to me to look after lizzie. i'd have felt i'd failed by being off on a two-week trip.

if, on the other hand, i had reason to suspect her of doing the deeds, oh god knows what i'd be thinking! again guilt about having left her alone with abby and andrew. or if i hated abby so much, and was upset with my father and worried he might leave everything (or too much?) to abby when he died, perhaps some relief?

Yes re: what exactly was the wording of the telegram. Lizzie told Dr. Bowen to word the telegram gently so perhaps it was so gentle that Emma didn't feel the need to rush home. There's a sizable continuum between, "Father dead. Face chopped off with hatchet. Come home." Versus, "Father dead. Mysterious circumstance. Come home." Or just, "Father dead. Come home." Since the wording was left to Dr. Bowen he may have chosen to mention Abby, too.

Maybe Emma was a deliberate person. My husband never steps outside in winter without coat, cap, gloves (and boots when snow on the ground). I'll run out in my nightgown if the errand takes only minutes. Emma may have had a ritual for departure that she observed regardless of the situation. Another possibility is she had to deal with the distress of the 'old person present' before she could leave. I can see an uproar among the Borden relatives that could slow her down if they knew one or both had been murdered.

Then again, maybe she wasn't in the least surprised.

[Curryong]

Yes, all those scenarios are possible, and Emma may well have delayed her departure due to deference for her elderly hostess's feelings. I think the telegram would be very interesting to read. Perhaps it was something along the lines of 'Please return, something has happened, you are needed at home' and Emma took it that her father was very ill. When she arrived however, she seemed to take things in her stride, so maybe she did have an inkling something dreadful had happened.

[Catbooks]

yes, it could have been so gentle it was like that. no specifics, just a request for her to come home as soon as she could.

another thought: lizzie appears to be expressing concern about how the news would impact emma's elderly hostess's sensibilities, possibly emma's as well. but she also could have been buying herself some time before she had to face emma. lizzie had been mothered by emma all of her life, into adulthood. you'd think, if she were innocent, she'd want emma there as soon as possible to help and comfort her. she'd always turned to emma. yet here we don't see that.

edited to add: no idea how much time it'd take, but emma had been away for two weeks, so had two weeks' worth of clothing and whatnot to pack up before she could leave. i doubt it was a lot. not nearly as much to pack as had it been lizzie who was away. but she would have to pack up her belongings.

[debbiediablo]

I'm not sure if we truly know whether or not Lizzie turned to Emma. As a adult Lizzie seems like the dominant personality.

[Catbooks]

i don't think there's any question that lizzie turned to emma, as a child and beyond. it would only be natural, even without their mother's deathbed charge to emma to take care of lizzie. emma was 9 years older, and acted alone as lizzie's mother until andrew married abby. lizzie followed emma's lead about disliking abby.

later, about the half-house andrew gave to abby, she'd have been older and had her own thoughts/concerns about their future inheritance, and resentments, but had long been colored by emma.

we also have lizzie saying alice should have told her, stopped her from burning the dress. 'why did you let me?' it's a childish response, indicating a lack of emotional maturity.

so while we don't know definitively, it seems logical that out of a lifetime habit, she'd turn to emma under great duress. that being either she was innocent and having to deal with this horror by herself, or the stress of having just murdered two people and worried about being found out.

[MysteryReader]

I haven't read much about Emma yet but after reading through these posts, I have to say that in my mind, I picture Emma to be like Meg and Beth in Little Women and Lizzie to be more like Jo and Amy, not necessarily either having mental issues or anything like that. As to why it took Emma so long to get home, we don't know if she came by carriage or train (do we?), how far apart the 2 cities were (I don't, at least) or what time the trains were running (could have been a bit before she could get one)? I do agree that the doctor probably worded it gently that she needed to come home.

[Curryong]

It's about 15 miles between the two towns but Emma went up to Weir Junction rather than down towards Fall River apparently. You're right. We don't know about the railway timetable though, as Fairhaven was a popular little resort there would have to be fairly regular trains you would think.

[MysteryReader]

Oh, I see. Well I think today will be spent on looking at a map of the area and Emma. I think it's strange, though that it took her a while to get home. Does anything say she took a train or perhaps a carriage/horse? That is something I'll be looking for as well.

[Aamartin]

she took a train. She had to pack and wait for the train schedule.

The train schedule in the August 5, 1892, New Bedford Evening Standard lists departure times as 8:45 a.m., 3:40., 6:15 and 9:40 p.m. It is stated in testimony she took the 3.40 which would have been the first available one to her

[Curryong]

That solves it then. Thank you Aa. She couldn't have got home any faster, except perhaps if someone had driven her home by buggy. Obviously there was no-one available so she took the first train.

[MysteryReader]

Thanks, Aa. That solves that one for me.

[Lorcan]

Bringing this thread back for current investigators to work on.

[Lorcan]

Here are my current Emma Borden working assumptions and questions. I’m not treating these as proven conclusions; this is where my thinking is right now, and I’m very open to counterarguments.

Emma’s deathbed promise to her mother to look after “Baby Lizzie” seems to have been fulfilled, at least in the emotional and practical sense, until 1905, when Emma left Maplecroft. By then, Lizzie was no longer the helpless child Emma had promised to protect. Lizbeth no longer needed Emma to protect her.

I keep thinking about the dramatized Emma/Lizzie scenes in the Elizabeth Montgomery film and in Chloë Sevigny’s Lizzie. Not as literal history, but as a psychological possibility: Did Emma, over time, begin to fear that venting to Lizzie about Abby was far more dangerous than it seemed at first. Emma might think it or say it, but Lizzie might actually do it? Did Emma fear Lizzie might someday snap? Is that why Emma left town for two weeks?

Did Emma try to placate Lizzie with the room switch when she returned from Europe? Was she reading Lizzie’s mood and trying to keep her from moving closer to some unknown dangerous edge?

Did Emma know Lizzie was guilty, and did she lie about it being her idea to burn the dress?

My current answer is yes. I think the moment Emma turned around in the kitchen and saw Lizzie about to burn the dress, her pre-existing suspicions may have crystallized. Then those suspicions may have been further strengthened by the later problem of the New Bedford dress material not being where Lizzie testified it was. It not being anywhere in the house.

That is also my current best explanation for what Emma may have asked Jennings about, and what Lizzie may have meant by “You have given me away.” I cannot prove that. It is only my present read of the evidence, and I’m open to better explanations.

Did Emma and Lizzie truly never speak again? I doubt it, though I need to read Parallel Lives before I can say much more. Emma initially moved only a short distance away. The split seems to have been telegraphed for months rather than done impulsively. And the sisters never made a completely clean financial break; they continued to have jointly held property and business interests for the rest of their lives.

There were phones. There were lawyers who could pass messages or even set up an in-person meeting discreetly. Even if the emotional break was real, I’m not yet convinced that total silence was.

[Inspector]

My thoughts on Emma:
If Lizzie was guilty. both JVM, and Emma knew exactly who killed the Bordens and why.
There was no fear of staying and sleeping in the same house with her after the events, and no evidence that Lizzie was even questioned very much by John or Emma.
It was in the family and didn’t need to be discussed.
Emma self admitted she didn’t get along better with Abby than Lizzie did, and it was said that Lizzie even spoke to Abby more than Emma.
Similar to the above posters, Lizzie may not have been able to separate the emotional from the physical, and certainly both sisters had expressed their dislike of Abby.
The sisters were very close, and I believe Emma regretted all the things she ever said about Abby , and it upset Emma with guilt.
If Emma was normal—in the common meaning, she had to regret her unbridled tongue.
John, staying in the yard for up to 4 hours—-probably waiting on Emma, to me says a lot.
We know who and why.
Of course—-only if Lizzie was guilty.

[camgarsky4]

In the spirit of encouraging' Emma' dialogue.....

There was no fear of staying and sleeping in the same house with her after the events, and no evidence that Lizzie was even questioned very much by John or Emma.
It was in the family and didn’t need to be discussed.

Lizzie, Emma and Morse were in the house together from the night of August 4 until the end of the inquest. A full week. It would defy any and all human communication norms if they didn't have many conversations about the murders that had just occurred in that very house, to their parents and friends. Prior to Saturday evening, Morse was a co-target and if that was me, I would have sought as much information about what happened as possible to best arm himself against any accusation.

After each day of the inquest, Jennings must have spent time at the Borden house discussing what had occurred and how to handle the following day. If you study the 'adjustments' in Lizzie's question answering style, it differed between day 1 and day 2. It would be expected that Jennings would not want Emma and Morse present during those prep chats, but equally normal for Emma, and possibly John, to eagerly go to Lizzie afterwards and ask for a download.

PERSONAL OPINION
To your point, Emma and Lizzie may have had some degree of communication, after the 'estrangement, to ensure smooth business operations, but there are no indications from Emma's friend base (per Parallel Lives) that any of them had any interactions with Lizzie. As with most friend groups, people follow the lead of the person who's side they have chosen. If they didn't socialize with Lizzie, by extension, I don't think Emma did either.

With that as a baseline, I can't imagine what would create a permanent (multi decade) civil breakup outside of disloyalty and betrayal. Killing one's father is the ultimate sign of both. So while Emma may have suspected Lizzie from day 1, I think it was confirmed prior to the estrangement occurred. Again, just my opinion...based on all info available to-date, no one can know the answer definitely.

Before the idea of an alternative lifestyle causing the PERMANENT rift, we know nothing about Emma that might suggest she was a religious zealot. Yes, she was friends with the Buck's, but I think Buck became Emma's 'father' fill-in after the death of Andrew. I view the fact that Buck died a couple years before Emma left Lizzie as pretty telling that his counsel wasn't the stimulant for her departure.

[Inspector]

My point is that, neither John or Emma admitted questioning Lizzie, not that it never happened.
I agree there was much discussion between them afterwards, however Alice would not be allowed to hear.
Apparently her attorneys never got an admission out of them either.

It’s part of the reason I’ve been curious about Spencer seemingly giving commentary that Bridget spent the night at the Borden house after the murders, and a few pages later he seems to contradict himself.
I still lean that John and Emma didn’t need to have anyone tell them what happened, but curious that none of her lawyers seem to have come to the belief of Lizzie’s guilt, or admitted on paper. (after much questioning.)

My personal feeling about the sisters remaining together, is rooted in their closeness, and Emma knew how much Lizzie cared for her, and vice versa. Emma obviously felt her life was safe with her sibling.

I think Lizzie was not fond of her dad either, as Alice confirmed how he didn’t seem to care for the things that were important to them. Whether he did or didn’t doesn’t matter, it’s what the sisters perceived.

I think the sisters separated, not due to the murders only, but was always a nag over the years, and it would only take a small threat from Lizzie to send Emma running.
——Just my opinion.


I’d think John, Emma , and Lizzie would be like… what are we going to do now?
Get a lawyer, put out a ransom, hide the evidence, etc…

[camgarsky4]

Agree that Lizzie had grown emotionally distant from her father by the end.

[Inspector]

It’s the only logical way that her father’s death even begins to make sense.
I can imagine the sisters and Alice up in the guest room discussing how life could be so much better, with Alice agreeing.
I think one of the things that got to Alice was how Lizzie snapped at her, when it should have been Emma who received the correction about the dress burning.
I would like to have seen how Lizzie said it, the tone of her voice may or may not have been the final straw for Alice.

[Lorcan]

I have a slightly different view of the situation with Alice. Here are my current thoughts and guesses.

1. Alice (b. 1852) was a closer friend to Emma (b. 1851) than Lizzie (b. 1860). I also think Alice was closer in personality and temperament to Emma.

2. Alice kept her silence for a while. Perhaps Emma and Lizzie treated her differently after the dress burning incident, or maybe it was purely her conscience or maybe it was even someone she told letting her know she was in potential legal trouble if it was found out she lied under oath.

[Inspector]

From PH
Alice gives first hand, intimate looks at how the sisters viewed their dad.
Here’s where I formulated my thoughts that Alice agreed with the sisters, and thought it natural for them to expect more.

Were they congenial?
A. I should not suppose they would be - knowing their different natures.
Q. The different nature of the father and mother and Lizzie?
A. Yes, each of them.
Q. What was the difference in their natures?
A. Mr. Borden was a plain living man with ridgid ideas, and very set. They were young girls. He had earned his
money, and he did not care for the things that young women in their position naturally would; and he looked
upon those things--- I dont know just how to put it.
Q. He did not appreciate girls?
A. No, I dont think he did.
Q. Their ideas were more modern than his with regard to the way of living, do you mean?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did you get this, from the girls talk, or what you observed?
A. From what I observed. Everybody knew what Andrew Borden’s ideas were. He was a very plain living man;
he did not care for anything
152 (59)
different. It always seemed to me as if he did not see why they should care for anything different.
Q. Did they complain about it?
A. Yes, they used to think it ought to be different; there was no reason why it should not be. They used to
think it might be different.
Q. Lizzie or Emma, or both?
A. Both.

[Inspector]

If what Alice says is true, both sisters were unhappy with their life status before the murders.
Alice seems to say it would be natural for them to expect more, to me it shows a desire for a higher lifestyle.
This required money, and Andrew—according to Alice—didn’t care for the things the girls wanted.
I’m sure by now, they were aware of their fathers wealth, and figured it wouldn’t ever come their way, and possibly saw Abby as part of the blockage, wheather real or imagined.

[Lorcan]

Emma’s realistic social-marriage window within The Hill Crowd was roughly 1870–1876; Lizzie’s was roughly 1880–1886. For either daughter to enter that world, Andrew would probably have needed to do more than simply possess money. He would have had to arrange opportunities for them to host or attend suitable gatherings—whether at 92 Second Street, at the home of a friend or relative on The Hill, or through some other form of social sponsorship. Failing that, he would have needed to make them financially attractive enough, perhaps through substantial dowries, to interest men at the lower edge of high society. By 1892, that socially expected path had effectively closed for both Emma and Lizzie.

My current theory is that the Fourth Street house purchase threatened Emma and Lizzie not because of the relatively small $5,000 involved, but because of what it revealed about Abby’s influence. It showed that Abby could persuade Andrew to do something materially significant for her own half-sister—buying a house—while either choosing not to advocate similarly for Emma and Lizzie, or failing when she tried. From their perspective, Abby had achieved for her own family what Andrew had denied his daughters, the dignity of full adulthood and home ownership.

Andrew’s sister may also have felt some obligation to advocate for Emma and Lizzie. I suspect she may have done so, and that this may help explain the later rift with Hiram.

The financial scale is important. The value of 92 Second Street was at least 75% of the cost of Maplecroft, and Maplecroft itself represented only about 4% of Andrew’s net worth. In other words, the issue was not whether Andrew could afford to position his daughters socially. He could. The issue was that he apparently would not.

Two things can be true at once. Lizzie may have been entitled and unusually assertive about what she regarded as her birthright. Andrew may also have been determined that his hard-earned money would not be spent on what he considered social display, frivolity, or extravagance. They lived in different moral economies. To Andrew, restraint was virtue. To Lizzie, restraint may have looked like deprivation.

From Lizzie’s perspective, Andrew had not merely denied her luxuries. He destroyed her social prospects, her marital prospects, and her chance to occupy the class position she believed the Borden name and fortune entitled her to claim. If she came to see Abby’s influence as growing while her own influence diminished—or as having never truly existed—then the Fourth Street transaction may have crystallized a much larger grievance. In that reading, the murders were not about $5,000. They were about status, exclusion, inheritance, and the belief that Andrew and Abby had taken from Lizzie a life she thought should have been hers.

[camgarsky4]

A goodly number of Lizzie and Emma's contemporaries did not marry. On the wealthy side, Anna and Carrie Borden and on the 'holding a job' side, Elizabeth Johnston and Alice Russell. Randomly search thru Parallel Lives and you'll see multiple examples of the daughters of the wealthy choosing not to wed because they did not want a man taking control of their father's estate and deciding what their lifestyle would be.

Don't know if this was a unique social behavior to Fall River or was common for that era in general.

[Lorcan]

I agree on the macro level with Camgarsky. I have no idea what Emma wanted, but given how much she admired Rev. Buck, I bet if an age-appropriate version of him were available, she would have said yes. For Lizzie, the testimony from earlier, and especially Hiram's interview, if it can be trusted to be accurate, lead me to think that as a teenager and in her early twenties, Lizzie really did want the full social experience - which I think would have likely led to marriage.

Perhaps those other women, the wealthy ones, attended all the parties and still didn't marry? I didn't read Parallel Lives yet.

Q. Did they complain about it?
A. Yes, they used to think it ought to be different; there was no reason why it should not be. They used to think it might be different.
Q. Lizzie or Emma, or both?
A. Both.

Hiram Harrington Interview:

Lizzie, on the contrary, was haughty and domineering with the stubborn will of her father and bound to contest for her rights. There were many animated interviews between father and daughter on this point. Lizzie is of a repellant disposition, and after an unsuccessful passage with her father would become sulky and refuse to speak to him for days at a time. She moved in the best society in Fall River, was a member of the Congregational church, and is a brilliant conversationalist. She thought she ought to entertain as others did, and felt that with her father's wealth she was expected to hold her end up with others of her set. Her father's constant refusal to allow her to entertain lavishly angered her. I have heard many bitter things she has said of her father, and know she was deeply resentful of her father's maintained stand in this matter.

In that era, in that neighborhood, in that religious setting, I think those parties weren't like the beer keg parties we went to in high school and college. They were choreographed match making and social chess positioning exercises. I think if Lizzie were immersed in that social scene, she would have married. I don't know how if Lizzie were to get what she wanted as far as hosting and participating in those parties, that she wouldn't expect a match to be made as part of that process.

I don't have absolute proof, but I'm pretty sure she had at least two romantic affairs with men and her relationship with Nance may have been very close, but I don't think it would have precluded Lizzie wanting the whole social package of marriage to a man with a mansion on The Hill.

[camgarsky4]

Lorcan, you may very well be correct in how you are interpreting Lizzie's marriage aspirations and why they may not have been fulfilled. Its one of those topics that, due to a lack of clarity, the case will create differences of opinion with no real means to resolve.

If you are willing to share, I am fascinated about what information indicates to you that Lizzie had romantic affairs with men.

[Lorcan]

I don't have enough info to grade each one of these with plausibility scores, but maybe others have input to upgrade or downgrade the believability of them.

I'm basing my idea that Lizzie would have wanted to marry not on any specific boyfriend, but on her desire to host and attend those parties - which I may be misinterpreting - but I currently think that those social parties on The Hill were specifically for matchmaking, not simply parties for fun. If I'm wrong about that, then the whole basis of the theory collapses.

If it's not that - the whole social package she's after (mansion on The Hill, position in society, attending plays, travel, etc. all with the convenience of having a husband and all the social doors that opens) then I don't know why she fought so hard to host and attend those parties. If she was an anti-social loner, why did she try so hard, volunteer so much, try to get into that social circle on The Hill? I think those girls and later women rejected her, never let her in as an equal.

Here's the list. I think 2 is the most likely to get us somewhere. If those letters are ever released and they are in Lizzie's own handwriting, then we'd have something relatively solid to go on.

1. Joseph Tetreault/Tatro the reportedly handsome driver that Emma fired from Maplecroft and Lizzie re-hired.

2. In some video interview with the Fall River Historical Society there are supposedly a collection of letters between Lizzie and a man that would indicate a long-time romance, but the letters have not been made public.

3. David Anthony (Rudy Cameron gave the story to the Ellsworth American, a small newspaper in Ellsworth Maine - from this forum mbhenty)

4. The story of Lizzie to be wed first appeared in The Fall River News, back in 1896, 3 years after the murder. Supposedly it was to a school teacher in Swansea. Edward Radin, in his book "Lizzie Borden, The Legend, The Truth, The Final Chapter, Radin claims that he saw a letter where Lizzie apologizes to a friend (I think?) and disputes the engagement. (from this forum mbhenty)

Here's the article from a bit further down in the forum:

But the press would not leave her alone. On December 10, 1896, a brief article which appeared in the Boston Globe was picked up by newspapers throughout the country:

IS LIZZIE BORDEN TO MARRY?

Fall River, Mass., Dec. 10--Friends of Lizzie Andrew Borden, who was once accused of the murder of her father and stepmother and whose trial was one of the most famous the country has known, are congratulating her upon the approach of her marriage. The husband-to-be is one Mr. Gardner, a school teacher of the village of Swansea, which lies a few miles across the bay to the west of the city. He has been a friend of Miss Borden since childhood days, which they spent upon adjoining farms. The engagement has been rumored about for weeks, but it lacked confirmation until a few days ago, when it was learned that Miss Borden has given to a well-known dressmaker an order for a trousseau. Mr. Gardner has had erected in South Somerset a fine new house. It is said that the wedding will probably take place about Christmas.


The residents of the farm adjacent to the one which Andrew Borden had owned in Swansea were named Gardner. And the eldest son was a school teacher. But the story of Lizzie's romance and impending marriage had been fabricated.

Soon after the article appeared, reporters from out-of-town newspapers flooded Fall River.

Gardner went into hiding and Lizzie withdrew behind the oak doors of Maplecroft, where she was constantly harassed. The incident infuriated and disturbed her. Two days later she wrote to Mrs. Cummings, the dressmaker Emma had written to earlier. The letter's significance was that it revealed the strain Lizzie was under.

It was from Mrs. Cummings, whose shop on Elm Street stood beside Andrew Borden's Union Savings Bank, that Lizzie supposedly had ordered her wedding gown.


My dear Friend
I am more sorry than I can tell you that you have had any trouble over the false and silly story that has been about the last week or so. How or when it started I have not the least idea. But never for a moment did I think you or your girls started it. Of course I am feeling very badly about it but I must just bear as I have in the past. I do hope you will not be annoyed again. Take care of yourself, so you can get well.
Yours sincerely
L. A. Borden
Dec. 12, 1896

[Lorcan]

Warps and Wefts has a good article on Tatro:

https://lizziebordenwarpsandwefts.com/2 ... joe-tatro/

[camgarsky4]

As you state, the Gardner rumor was just that. Tetrault (his name was spelled a variety of ways) is one I had forgotten. A few of us dug into him a couple years ago. I'll see what I can find...I can't even remember what we ended thinking about that situation.

Whether Lizzie had a fling w/ her chauffeur in the early 1900's or not, how does that factor into whether Andrew crippled Lizzie's dreams of marriage?

Ruby Cameron is well covered in the early days of this forum. To the best of my determination, nothing she shared that wasn't already known were validated. Back when I read up on her, I grouped her info with Arnold Brown's sources (Peterson??).
Since this is a new topic for some folks, I'll find a couple articles that explain it better.
The Anthony's were a really big deal....Borden's and Anthony's had been marrying in the Fall River area for decades.

As you note Gardner was a rumor and denied by all parties.

I've never heard of mysterious collection of personal letters Lizzie wrote to a man. Do you recall how recent the interview was? I'll see if I can learn anything more about them. I would be startled if this was legit. But I've been startled before.

[Lorcan]

I'll try to find that video - if I'm remembering it correctly - part of it was filmed on the conference room table in the Fall River Historical Society and it was Dr. Koorey interviewing one of the authors of Parallel Lives, the museum director, I think - and the question was around how careful they are not to pressure donors and to reassure them the material will be treated with respect - and him saying how he actually turned down viewing some things because if it weren't ready for publication he didn't want to be in a position of knowing the details. I think it was somewhere in this exchange that it was mentioned that there is a collection of letters of Lizzie's long-term relationship with a man - and it was unsure when and how that information would be respectfully presented. I'll check Dr. Koorey's YouTube channel to see if I can find it. I think it was the one that the author of the children's book and she shared and she took over after he passed away.

"How does that factor into whether Andrew crippled Lizzie's dreams of marriage?"

It's specifically this:

She moved in the best society in Fall River, was a member of the Congregational church, and is a brilliant conversationalist. She thought she ought to entertain as others did, and felt that with her father's wealth she was expected to hold her end up with others of her set. Her father's constant refusal to allow her to entertain lavishly angered her. I have heard many bitter things she has said of her father, and know she was deeply resentful of her father's maintained stand in this matter.

So, this leads to a chain of thought that goes like this:

1. Lizzie wants to attend and host social parties that young women of her age and financial class hold in the mansions on The Hill.

2. Lizzie takes the Borden name seriously and does not consider herself a lesser Borden.

3. Lizzie deeply believes she deserves to be up there on The Hill, and that her father's wealth could and should put her there.

4. Lizzie tried to fit in to that social set (going to the right church, volunteering for the right charities, traveling with them) but she never quite fit in (remember the writeup of the ladies attending and the woman wrote in - I don't know who she is - next to Lizzie's name?)

5. So, it's not specifically marriage, and to me it doesn't materially change things if she was only romantically attracted to women, it was the entire package of social position, opportunities, and lifestyle. I think there were many marriages of mutual benefit that were not necessarily down to sexual attraction and Lizzie could have found a match one way or another to achieve that lifestyle she so strongly yearned for.

So, my impression is for years Lizzie tried to convince her father to do what was necessary for her to have a legitimate shot at being part of that social group. If he bought a mansion on The Hill, and Emma and Lizzie as young women attended those parties, would things have been different? Maybe not - maybe Emma and Lizzie would still have been seen as outsiders and maybe it would have been intolerable or impossible for Andrew to be accepted as a greater Borden, as well. But try to tell that to a 15 year old Lizzie Borden...I think she still wanted that opportunity badly enough to fight for it unsuccessfully for years.

I don't realistically think that Andrew could or should have compromised his own morals in that way. The only arrangement I can think of that might have worked to everyone's benefit is this rather fantastical arrangement with Andrew making this offer to his sister and Hiram:

I will privately buy a mansion on The Hill. You and Hiram can live there rent free for the rest of your lives. I will pay for the maintenance and upkeep of the property. In trade, Emma and Lizzie will always have rooms to live there and visit as much as they want to, whenever they want to, and during the social party seasons, and they would live with you for those weeks of the year. If after age 18 they want to move in permanently, they will be welcomed.

If only the world and personalities and society were that simple.

[Lorcan]

I found it.

(referencing this from a few posts above)

2. In some video interview with the Fall River Historical Society there are supposedly a collection of letters between Lizzie and a man that would indicate a long-time romance, but the letters have not been made public.

This is Dr. Koorey interviewing FRHS Dennis Binette (you can jump to 55:55, but I'd highly recommend the whole 3 episode interview)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPysY1xj6Gk

[camgarsky4]

Thanks for posting the link. I'll watch the entire video.

Back to you post.....I 100% agree with points 1-4.

However, In my opinion, Andrew's thriftiness and the impact that had on Lizzie's marriage aspirations is speculation and unnecessary to make your point; which you lay out very well in bullets 1-4.

In my opinion, Lizzie didn't get married because of her personality. In just one example, in Hiram's interview (posted earlier in this thread), he describes her having a "repellant disposition'. As we all know she is also called 'peculiar' and other negative descriptors that I've forgotten. Men in the 1890's, 1990's and today, when given the choice, will always want to know what their potential dates might be like. In a town and society like Fall River, it would seem every young man would know what Lizzie was all about. And with that knowledge, she had a very somber dating life.

[Lorcan]

Just in case people don't do the: click on the channel name, click on Videos, then read back the numbers, this is the 3 part interview with one of the authors of Parallel Lives. Very high quality content:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oamImcNc1Zk

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPysY1xj6Gk

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFtckq9AIxU

[Lorcan]

I'm nearly positive I actually saw the original somewhere, but here is what I was talking about above:

In a letter written to her daughter, Martha, on April 25, 1890, Mrs. William C. Davol, Jr., née Elizabeth Gray Cotton, stated:
"Nellie [Ellen M.] Shove Elizabeth [Lizzie] A. Borden (I do not know who she is) Anna [H.] Borden and Carrie [Caroline L.] Borden are going to Europe with Miss [Hannah D.] Mowry this summer."

Made by a woman with impeccable social connections who knew “everyone,” this comment says much; not being known by Mrs. Davol was, in Fall River, the equivalent of not being known socially. The source of Mrs. Davol’s information was the “Personal” column of the Fall River Weekly News for April 23, 1890, which reported: “Miss Ellen M[arion] Shove, Elizabeth [Lizzie] A. Borden, Anna H. Borden and Carrie L. Borden sail for Europe in June. The last two, daughters of Colonel Thomas J. Borden, will accompany Miss H[annah] D. Mowry on her trip to Norway and Sweden.”

Does anyone have the actual image?

[camgarsky4]

Did you get that out of Parallel Lives? I know its in there. But I also feel like I've seen it somewhere more original....drawing a blank...will keep trying to recall.

[Lorcan]

Page 238 Parallel Lives - I copied it from online somewhere, but you can see it on page 238.

[Inspector]

Spencer goes over it as well, if you need the reference I can look it up for you.
He also talks about the ship and how it was at the end of its service.

[camgarsky4]

please post the source he references. He probably used Parallel Lives...but just in case something different, be good to know.

Speaking of Parallel Lives, did you guys have a chance to read about the welcome home from europe reception held for the 3 borden women?

[Inspector]

Page 210 and forward Spencer, CALB

[Inspector]

Spencer references Providence News article August 12, 1892.
Also ,( Fall River Weekly News April 25, 1890.—-which mentions the letter containing “I do not know who she is.”)

[Lorcan]

I'll try to find and read the story in Parallel Lives tomorrow, but in doing a quick search I ran into something that supports Camgarsky's view of Lizzie being thought of as odd and against my idea that she didn't attend the parties. Not sure how well sourced it is, but since we are investigators in search of the truth and seeing it from different angles, here is the article:

https://phayemuss.wordpress.com/2009/07 ... ul-escort/

[camgarsky4]

The author is using the reception party I mentioned which is detailed in Parallel Lives, but she then 100% invented a conversation.

There are also newspaper snippets announcing the reception occurred, but only the diary has any 'juicy' insights.