Curryong wrote:I don't understand why Emma insisted on staying at the Second St house, actually. To stay in a house where your father and stepmother have been horribly butchered, a place with a mutilated Brussels carpet in the sitting room and various other fittings in police hands, just seems to me to be bizarre. Wasn't the very couch on Andrew was murdered sent to be reupholstered at some stage?
Surely to goodness, no-one could have WANTED to have stayed in the house for sentimental reasons. Emma could have stayed with friends or relatives, or if she didn't want to impose, a room in a boarding house convenient for visiting her sister.
If she had locked up the Second St house and left, at least until after the trial, I don't think anyone would have blamed her. Emma could have just intimated to Church friends etc that she wished to stay near her sister to support her in her ordeal, or alternatively that she just couldn't bear to stay in the old home any longer.
Curryong posted the above observation in another thread active today and I felt it was worth its own thread. We've often commented on Emma's penchant for simplicity, for starkness, little unassuming rooms and all that. Her testimony reads today (to some of us, anyway) like that of a remarkably calm, unemotional woman. Her demeanor throughout the more dramatic phases of the Borden story makes her later decision to leave Maplecroft seem almost shockingly passionate. And then, we have the behavior Curryong touches upon in her post. So, kids: What about this Emma Borden person? What's your take on her?
I think Emma was probably a mixture, as we all are. She was absolutely devoted to Lizzie, and was liked by other relatives such as the Gardners. She seems to have otherwise been extremely reserved, almost cut-off from human emotion. When faced with Andrew's corpse late on that Thursday there seems to have been little outwardly-exhibited sorrow. No floods of tears. Perhaps displays of that sort would have been considered vulgar, I don't know.
As she and Lizzie never spoke again after Emma left Maplecroft what drove them apart must have been massive but I doubt somehow that it had to do with the murder so many years before. Emma appears to have been very restrained and prim and proper and the two women probably irritated each other over the years.
To me Emma is quite an enigma of the still waters run deep kind, and I've never really been able to get a handle on her, so to speak. I don't believe that she gave that interview in old age, by the way. To speak about family matters and her sister to a newspaper person would have been anathema, I think.
i agree with curryong. emma strikes me as having taken after her stoic father. far more so than lizzie! who wasn't a bit stoic. despite emma's devotion, i think that's what ultimately was the undoing between them. they were so very different.
lizzie was reckless, wanted the finer things in life, to go out in the world and *live* life, in the way she thought she ought to be able to do.
emma was the opposite, content with her lot in life, with very modest desires and decidedly not reckless.
i wonder how it would have been had there been no lizzie, no promise to her dying mother to take care of baby lizzie. i doubt she'd have minded a bit the house and their lifestyle being lived below their means. she might have still resented abby coming into the household and in ways taking her place, but i think she'd have gotten over that quickly enough, and all would have been well.
andrew probably would have evenly split his money and holdings between them, and there wouldn't have been the seething resentment.
i tend to think emma wouldn't have given that interview either, unless she felt she needed to step out of the shadows to protect lizzie. again.
Catbooks wrote:i agree with curryong. emma strikes me as having taken after her stoic father. far more so than lizzie! who wasn't a bit stoic. despite emma's devotion, i think that's what ultimately was the undoing between them. they were so very different.
lizzie was reckless, wanted the finer things in life, to go out in the world and *live* life, in the way she thought she ought to be able to do.
emma was the opposite, content with her lot in life, with very modest desires and decidedly not reckless.
i wonder how it would have been had there been no lizzie, no promise to her dying mother to take care of baby lizzie. i doubt she'd have minded a bit the house and their lifestyle being lived below their means. she might have still resented abby coming into the household and in ways taking her place, but i think she'd have gotten over that quickly enough, and all would have been well.
andrew probably would have evenly split his money and holdings between them, and there wouldn't have been the seething resentment.
i tend to think emma wouldn't have given that interview either, unless she felt she needed to step out of the shadows to protect lizzie. again.
I see Lizzie as has having some stoic aspects to her character: She held up during her incarceration. She settled on The Hill and stayed there all of her life despite being ostracized by most of the community. She could have fled to another state or another country. She could have changed her name to 'Elizabeth Smith' and lived anonymously ever after. For whatever reasons, Emma left instead when the situation became "unbearable." The major difference I see between them is Emma was repressed, and Lizzie acted out.
I do wonder about Sarah's charge to Emma to take care of Lizzie. That's a huge burden for young child. No matter how much Emma may have been devoted to Lizzie, there would have been anger and resentment about a childhood bereft of her own mother and lost to mothering a little sister. When Abby comes on the scene she both lifts responsibility from Emma's shoulders and displaces her role as Lizzie's mother and possibly as the familial female authority figure in the house. Then I have to wonder how much of Lizzie's relationship with Abby was fueled, deliberately or otherwise, by Emma's attitude.
Did Lizzie do in reality what Emma only fantasized?
DebbieDiablo
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
I was very much struck by your last sentence, Debbiediablo. Lizzie may very well have done what Emma only dreamed of! By the way, I see your signature is from a story about the master of detection, Sherlock Holmes. Are you an admirer of the Great Man?
Catbooks wrote:i agree with curryong. emma strikes me as having taken after her stoic father. far more so than lizzie! who wasn't a bit stoic. despite emma's devotion, i think that's what ultimately was the undoing between them. they were so very different.
lizzie was reckless, wanted the finer things in life, to go out in the world and *live* life, in the way she thought she ought to be able to do.
emma was the opposite, content with her lot in life, with very modest desires and decidedly not reckless.
i wonder how it would have been had there been no lizzie, no promise to her dying mother to take care of baby lizzie. i doubt she'd have minded a bit the house and their lifestyle being lived below their means. she might have still resented abby coming into the household and in ways taking her place, but i think she'd have gotten over that quickly enough, and all would have been well.
andrew probably would have evenly split his money and holdings between them, and there wouldn't have been the seething resentment.
i tend to think emma wouldn't have given that interview either, unless she felt she needed to step out of the shadows to protect lizzie. again.
I see Lizzie as has having some stoic aspects to her character: She held up during her incarceration. She settled on The Hill and stayed there all of her life despite being ostracized by most of the community. She could have fled to another state or another country. She could have changed her name to 'Elizabeth Smith' and lived anonymously ever after. For whatever reasons, Emma left instead when the situation became "unbearable." The major difference I see between them is Emma was repressed, and Lizzie acted out.
I do wonder about Sarah's charge to Emma to take care of Lizzie. That's a huge burden for young child. No matter how much Emma may have been devoted to Lizzie, there would have been anger and resentment about a childhood bereft of her own mother and lost to mothering a little sister. When Abby comes on the scene she both lifts responsibility from Emma's shoulders and displaces her role as Lizzie's mother and possibly as the familial female authority figure in the house. Then I have to wonder how much of Lizzie's relationship with Abby was fueled, deliberately or otherwise, by Emma's attitude.
Did Lizzie do in reality what Emma only fantasized?
i suppose she held up well enough while being incarcerated, but she didn't have much choice about it! that was, though, when she was prescribed the morphine, to calm her nerves because she had insomnia the first week. she was also brought food from outside, and had a lot more comforts there most people wouldn't. i can see some stoicism in her during the trial.
as far as her not leaving fall river, i attribute that to stubbornness rather than stoicism, although there is a certain amount of stoicism in stubbornness. i see her staying there as 'dammit i WILL have that house on the hill, i WILL be accepted by the people i'd always felt i was one of.' oops. i think she also probably thought if she moved, she'd be admitting guilt.
i do think you're spot-on about emma being repressed and lizzie acting out, and that emma played a very large part in lizzie's feelings towards abby.
Dr Bowen's telegram to Emma on the day of the tragedies is stamped 11:32am. Even if we say it took an hour for the telegram to reach Emma at the Brownells' house in Fairhaven (which would be very slow) Emma didn't leave on a New Bedford train for Weir Junction to return to Fall River (by a rather circuitous route) until 3:40 pm.
She finally arrived in Fall River at 5pm. The distance between Fairhaven and Fall River is about 15 miles. I don't know about you but if I was told of terrible trouble at home I'd be rushing home as soon as possible. Emma seems to have been putting off the inevitable for as long as possible.
i wish we knew what the telegram said. it'd be another piece for us to put under the microscope and speculate about the wording.
in watching the elizabeth montgomery tv movie last night, they portrayed emma as a far less tight-lipped and new englandy sort of person than i'd been envisioning her. which made me wonder why i have this picture of emma in my head. all we have to go on are the few photos of her, some of her words (testimony, some letters), and some of her actions. about same as anyone else involved, of course, but yet emma remains foggier than most. to me.
unless there was some legit reason for her taking that long-route 3:40 train (i don't know either way), it does look like she was buying herself some time to think.
if i put myself in emma's place, which i admit is kind of difficult, i'd think my main concern at that point would be rushing to my (innocent) sister's side to comfort and support her. my father would already be dead and past any help. abby i wouldn't care so much about anyway. on top of wanting to rush to my sister's side in general, i'd have been keenly aware of my dead mother's charge to me to look after lizzie. i'd have felt i'd failed by being off on a two-week trip.
if, on the other hand, i had reason to suspect her of doing the deeds, oh god knows what i'd be thinking! again guilt about having left her alone with abby and andrew. or if i hated abby so much, and was upset with my father and worried he might leave everything (or too much?) to abby when he died, perhaps some relief?
Catbooks wrote:i wish we knew what the telegram said. it'd be another piece for us to put under the microscope and speculate about the wording.
in watching the elizabeth montgomery tv movie last night, they portrayed emma as a far less tight-lipped and new englandy sort of person than i'd been envisioning her. which made me wonder why i have this picture of emma in my head. all we have to go on are the few photos of her, some of her words (testimony, some letters), and some of her actions. about same as anyone else involved, of course, but yet emma remains foggier than most. to me.
unless there was some legit reason for her taking that long-route 3:40 train (i don't know either way), it does look like she was buying herself some time to think.
if i put myself in emma's place, which i admit is kind of difficult, i'd think my main concern at that point would be rushing to my (innocent) sister's side to comfort and support her. my father would already be dead and past any help. abby i wouldn't care so much about anyway. on top of wanting to rush to my sister's side in general, i'd have been keenly aware of my dead mother's charge to me to look after lizzie. i'd have felt i'd failed by being off on a two-week trip.
if, on the other hand, i had reason to suspect her of doing the deeds, oh god knows what i'd be thinking! again guilt about having left her alone with abby and andrew. or if i hated abby so much, and was upset with my father and worried he might leave everything (or too much?) to abby when he died, perhaps some relief?
Yes re: what exactly was the wording of the telegram. Lizzie told Dr. Bowen to word the telegram gently so perhaps it was so gentle that Emma didn't feel the need to rush home. There's a sizable continuum between, "Father dead. Face chopped off with hatchet. Come home." Versus, "Father dead. Mysterious circumstance. Come home." Or just, "Father dead. Come home." Since the wording was left to Dr. Bowen he may have chosen to mention Abby, too.
Maybe Emma was a deliberate person. My husband never steps outside in winter without coat, cap, gloves (and boots when snow on the ground). I'll run out in my nightgown if the errand takes only minutes. Emma may have had a ritual for departure that she observed regardless of the situation. Another possibility is she had to deal with the distress of the 'old person present' before she could leave. I can see an uproar among the Borden relatives that could slow her down if they knew one or both had been murdered.
Then again, maybe she wasn't in the least surprised.
DebbieDiablo
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¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
Yes, all those scenarios are possible, and Emma may well have delayed her departure due to deference for her elderly hostess's feelings. I think the telegram would be very interesting to read. Perhaps it was something along the lines of 'Please return, something has happened, you are needed at home' and Emma took it that her father was very ill. When she arrived however, she seemed to take things in her stride, so maybe she did have an inkling something dreadful had happened.
yes, it could have been so gentle it was like that. no specifics, just a request for her to come home as soon as she could.
another thought: lizzie appears to be expressing concern about how the news would impact emma's elderly hostess's sensibilities, possibly emma's as well. but she also could have been buying herself some time before she had to face emma. lizzie had been mothered by emma all of her life, into adulthood. you'd think, if she were innocent, she'd want emma there as soon as possible to help and comfort her. she'd always turned to emma. yet here we don't see that.
edited to add: no idea how much time it'd take, but emma had been away for two weeks, so had two weeks' worth of clothing and whatnot to pack up before she could leave. i doubt it was a lot. not nearly as much to pack as had it been lizzie who was away. but she would have to pack up her belongings.
i don't think there's any question that lizzie turned to emma, as a child and beyond. it would only be natural, even without their mother's deathbed charge to emma to take care of lizzie. emma was 9 years older, and acted alone as lizzie's mother until andrew married abby. lizzie followed emma's lead about disliking abby.
later, about the half-house andrew gave to abby, she'd have been older and had her own thoughts/concerns about their future inheritance, and resentments, but had long been colored by emma.
we also have lizzie saying alice should have told her, stopped her from burning the dress. 'why did you let me?' it's a childish response, indicating a lack of emotional maturity.
so while we don't know definitively, it seems logical that out of a lifetime habit, she'd turn to emma under great duress. that being either she was innocent and having to deal with this horror by herself, or the stress of having just murdered two people and worried about being found out.
I haven't read much about Emma yet but after reading through these posts, I have to say that in my mind, I picture Emma to be like Meg and Beth in Little Women and Lizzie to be more like Jo and Amy, not necessarily either having mental issues or anything like that. As to why it took Emma so long to get home, we don't know if she came by carriage or train (do we?), how far apart the 2 cities were (I don't, at least) or what time the trains were running (could have been a bit before she could get one)? I do agree that the doctor probably worded it gently that she needed to come home.
It's about 15 miles between the two towns but Emma went up to Weir Junction rather than down towards Fall River apparently. You're right. We don't know about the railway timetable though, as Fairhaven was a popular little resort there would have to be fairly regular trains you would think.
Oh, I see. Well I think today will be spent on looking at a map of the area and Emma. I think it's strange, though that it took her a while to get home. Does anything say she took a train or perhaps a carriage/horse? That is something I'll be looking for as well.
she took a train. She had to pack and wait for the train schedule.
The train schedule in the August 5, 1892, New Bedford Evening Standard lists departure times as 8:45 a.m., 3:40., 6:15 and 9:40 p.m. It is stated in testimony she took the 3.40 which would have been the first available one to her
That solves it then. Thank you Aa. She couldn't have got home any faster, except perhaps if someone had driven her home by buggy. Obviously there was no-one available so she took the first train.
