Abby’s Instructions to Bridget About Washing Windows

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Tue Jul 21, 2026 9:13 pm

If you would take the time to read this section of Spencer’s CALB, pages 692-694, I would love to hear your thoughts.
I recently touched on the subject in some earlier posts when I discovered the discrepancy of Lizzie and Bridget’s movements Thursday morning, and how they contradict each other in regards to their interactions with Abby.
I just ran across Spencer’s analysis of the exact subject and timing.
He does some of his best sleuthing on these few pages IMO, and he unwrapped verifiable fact, and perceived fact.
Surprisingly he throws in Morse and Lubinsky as well.
It was so thought provoking that I’m going to read it again, but I would like to hear any ideas you might have about it.
Remember, Bridget stated she never saw Lizzie after she came back from being sick.

Hint: Spencer presents s good scenario that Abby was killed while Bridget was outside getting sick.
This never occurred to me, because I chose to believe testimony that pointed to a bit later——by believing Lizzie’s testimony of her seeing Bridget (in the house) with her window washing equipment.
And….Bridget’s testimony of speaking to Abby.
Also , the time Morse left also is presented by Spencer as integral in how one sees this crucial time period and testimony of Bridget and Lizzie.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue Jul 21, 2026 9:31 pm

I am out of town and away from the book. That said, I agree with Spencer and think Abby was killed while Bridget was vomiting. I think Lizzie thought she had gone out to start the windows and when Andrew left moments later, Lizzie knew the house was empty and headed to the guest room. Having just chatted with Abby, she knew that was where Abby was going once she fetched clean shams. And as they say, the rest is history.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Wed Jul 22, 2026 12:12 am

I read through it and I may be a bit tired so not at peak mental sharpness, but my guesses:

1. Morse really did hear the first general instruction about the window washing. I think Abby may have at some point while dusting saw something about the inside windows (perhaps hand prints on the inside glass or pollen on the outside) and she reiterated to Bridget later to wash them inside and out they are filthy). Bridget said she washed them once or twice a month, so perhaps they were particularly dirty that time.

2. Bridget said some of the clothes were drying in the kitchen on a rack, I assume some laundry would dry in the cellar, maybe pillow shams were in a closet upstairs by Abby's room (where Bridget got the extra sheets after the murders). Maybe Abby having just beaten the guest room bed with the stick and walking up and down the front stairs - perhaps she was taking a bit of a dusting break before hoofing it up and down the back staircase and then up the front staircase, so she waited a bit for the pillow sham duty.

BEGIN PURE SPECULATION
3. I think Lizzie waited for Bridget to be outside, if she were the killer. One of my unsubstantiated theories is there was a chair near the window near the sewing machine and when Lizzie went upstairs to baste a loop/button whatever it was - she could have looked out the window to check the driveway, perhaps saw Bridget go on one of her 7 or so trips to the barn to refill the pail - then she could sit in the sunlight and sew within arm's length of Abby, hatchet under a pile of laundry on her lap and with a glance to the Buffinton house windows to make sure it was all clean, stand up and swing in one quick motion.
END PURE SPECULATION

4. I don't think Morse nor Bridget lied. I think Abby was killed when Bridget was outside. I think bed making in 1892 was strenuous versus today and I think those pillow shams were stored where the sheets were stored up the back staircase in the closets in the far northeast of the house (above the kitchen pantry (now a bathroom on both floors - the private bathroom in the Andrew and Abby suite, but with a door from the hallway adjacent to the stairs back then. Now that they are bathrooms the hall doors are walled over and the doors are from the kitchen and bedroom.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Wed Jul 22, 2026 8:16 am

One major clue to the exact time Abby was killed, would be determining exactly when/how Bridget learned, or spoke to Abby about the pillow shams.
This is a big problem with Bridget’s testimony.
One conclusion I’ve come to, is that Bridget has to be the only possible co-conspirator if Lizzie is guilty.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Wed Jul 22, 2026 10:38 am

Cam if you are correct it means all conversations Bridget had with Abby and Lizzie happened fore she went outside to get sick.
This means the pillow shams discussion from Bridget’s perspective happened before she got sick or Bridget learned about it later from Lizzie, incorporating it in her timeline—-incorrectly.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Wed Jul 22, 2026 8:51 pm

Yep. But did Bridget talk all that much with the other two after she got ill?

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 5:32 am

Bridget’s sighting of Abby in the dining room after she came in from vomiting, and the somewhat detailed discussion about window washing, and possibly pillow shams (still looking into that) means Bridget’s memory isn’t what I personally thought so steadfast.
It’s a big chunk she has out of place, especially if Morse has the timing correct.
She may have talked to others and picked up or confused her timing,
However the more I see her inconsistency, I have to remain unbiased, and try to see if we can ascertain any factual evidence of manipulation, just as we would with Lizzie.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 6:33 am

Can you imagine how crappy Bridget felt in the moments before she darted out the side door and into the back yard to throw up? We've all lived that miserable and all consuming experience. We are at the mercy of our bodies at that point. Do we think she was fully absorbing what was going on around her in those moments? Hopefully she felt better afterwards, but to think that the sequence and timing of super brief and, when they occurred, inconsequential and mundane interactions with other people might not be a bit muddled doesn't seem realistic to me.
For me, bad nausea is the most consuming 'normal' illness. Headaches and sore throat are bad, but they are child's play compared to those moments before vomiting. My pet theory is that Bridget had a really bad hangover after sipping a bit too much Irish Whiskey the night before during her 'walk'.

She was retching so loudly that it appears Andrew checked her out as he was leaving. Churchill doesn't mention if he went back to comfort Bridget, but I hope he did (doubt he did).

Anyway, a good exercise for you might be to post what you think the conversations were that Bridget reported happened after she was sick. I think you'll find they are actually quite brief. Seconds long chats.

"Please wash the windows. The outside windows? In and out. Ok."
"I'm going to put clean shams on the guest pillows. Did you wash them this week? Yes. They are in your dressing room with the sheets."

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 6:50 am

Well, I’m going on your, and Spencer’s theory (possibly mine) that Abby was killed while Bridget was getting sick, even (if she really got sick) may be a consideration I’ll add in.
This would mean there was zero conversation with Abby and Lizzie after Bridget got sick, until Lizzie appeared at the side door.
All information Bridget gained from Lizzie and Abby (first hand) could only come from Lizzie’s short visit down stairs around 9 o’clock .
Bridget didn’t mention the pillow shams in the PH, so I’m going through her trial testimony to see exactly how she stated the exchange and if it was second hand, like the note.

TeenaBee · Post by **TeenaBee** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 11:35 am

I have read Spencer, and also agree that Bridget had her timeline mixed up, Abby did tell her to wash windows much earlier, and I also agree with Cam that it seems the most likely time that Abby was killed was while Bridget was out being sick. Maybe for different reasons. For one, I don't think it possible that Abby was just hanging around dusting downstairs for 30 to 40 minutes after Morse and Andrew left as Bridget seemed to suggest, and two, as I keep open the possibility that Lizzie was innocent, that would be the best time for an intruder to sneak in, while Lizzie was down in the water closet. In my pet theory, the intruder saw Andrew leave, saw Bridget out back and thought it was a good time to get in the house, and with a stroke of luck that no one was in the kitchen, he was able to sneak upstairs. But by stroke of bad luck (for him) surprised Abby in the guest room.

Of course, an intruder isn't necessary, it definitely could have been Lizzie who immediately followed Abby up to kill her. But this presents me two problems. Was she planning to use a hatchet all along? Did she have one waiting in her room, just sort of waiting each day for Abby to take herself upstairs out of sight? That is what Spencer suggests I think. How could she count on that happening? She couldn't. Also, if she had just killed Abby while Bridget was in back under the pear tree, then how could she have shown up at the back door minutes later when Bridget really did go out to wash windows without being marked with blood? Without trailing blood all over the house?

I know an intruder is an implausible scenario, but for me, Lizzie doing it and leaving no evidence is equally implausible. It's Lizzie's words afterward that most make her look guilty, she definitely got her story all scrambled. But then it would seem Bridget's story is scrambled as well, her timeline mixed up, and the shock to her memory could not possibly have been as severe as the shock to Lizzie's memory, so.... Well, at least Bridget didn't make up a story about a note. That's the thing that always trips me up on my merry way to Lizzie's innocence, that stupid note story.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 1:44 pm

Good callout on how Bridget's recollection makes it appear that Abby was shockingly thorough or slow at dusting, and likewise, Bridget had the same 'turtle pace' issues when it came to washing dishes!! Three people (4 including Bridget) eat breakfast and it takes Bridget a really long time to clean them. Abby was dusting that dining room a whole bunch.

Eliminating either from doing those chores post-9am makes it feel more time appropriate.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 2:27 pm

Suppose the pillowcases were in the laundry room in the cellar and instead of Abby going up the back staircase to the closet (where sheet and pillowcases folded up as a set normally, but this time the pillowcases were not included?) it went like this:

Abby: I'm just about done with the guest room, but I need fresh pillowcases.
Lizzie: I think I saw them in the laundry room drying last night. I'll bring them up if they are there.

Lizzie goes to the basement, uses the toilet, grabs a pile of laundry and hides a hatchet inside and adds the pillowcases on top.

Lizzie: Here you go, Mrs. Borden.

They both start walking up the front staircase.

Lizzie: One of my buttons almost came loose. I'll have to sew it back on.

Lizzie and Abby enter the guest/sewing room together.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alternate Version

Lizzie stole a brand new hatchet (what turned out the be the Crowe barn hatchet) as a joke because of all the trouble they had in Marion last year with the hatchet that was too dull to chop wood. It has been hidden in her room for months.

Same scenario except this time everything is innocent and the dress is really damaged. As Lizzie is sewing she and Abby have some words. Something Abby says sparks uncontrollable rage in Lizzie and she storms out of the room and slams her bedroom door. Abby continues her work. Lizzie remembers the hatchet. She comes back in holding the dress to finish, but there is something very shiny and sharp under the folded dress. Abby initially looks up, ready for the argument to resume, but Lizzie uncharacteristically says, "I'll discuss it with father. We will not speak of it again." Lizzie walks toward the sewing machine and Abby relaxes. Then an arc of bright metal flashes in her peripheral vision.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 4:23 pm

Here is Officer Hyde’s witness statement notes:
JOSEPH HYDE
August 4, 1892.
In talking to Bridget Sullivan on the above date I asked her what time Mrs. Borden went upstairs.
She said she thought it was a little before nine o’clock in the morning; and sometime after she came
down for some pillow shams. And she said to me, “have you anything particular to do?” Bridget
answered “No mam.” Mrs. Borden said “I would like you to wash those windows.” I went out and
washed the windows, and never saw Mrs. Borden again alive.

It appears there is no direct statement in testimony from Bridget about the pillow shams.
It’s anyone’s guess (like so much of this case) when or if Bridget learned about the pillow shams before Abby was killed.
One clue in Hyde’s report, is that Bridget said Abby went upstairs a little before 9 and
“sometime after she came down for some pillow shams.”
So apparently there’s a time gap leading up to Abby’s final ascent to the guest room, and when she came down for the shams.
Hyde’s notes also indicate that Bridget was aware that Abby had come down from the guest room after making the bed I assume.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 4:45 pm

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive0 ... wshams.htm

Here’s an old thread on the subject and timeline.

What to make of it all.
Does any of this support or hurt the theory that Abby was killed while Bridget was getting sick?

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 4:52 pm

Lorcan, I like your theory about Abby and Lizzie going upstairs together with the pillow shams, as this conversation could have been overheard by Bridget before she went to vomit, and could explain why Bridget never saw Lizzie again until later.
It doesn’t however explain the dining room exchange between Abby and Bridget after she got sick,
That conversation isn’t possible obviously, if Abby was killed while Bridget was getting sick.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 4:52 pm

I posted a while ago the multi-paragraph details of 1892 Victorian bed making. I would expect at least 15 to 20 minutes to do "make the bed" steps which would have been noisy with the beating of the layers of mattresses with a stick. Pulling layers off to air out, etc.

I would think Lizzie having the adjoining door (albeit locked and with a desk in front of it) could easily hear all that feather mattress beating from the gaps around the door, the key hole, and the general vibrations. If she was awake, she would have been able to follow what Abby was doing by sound for part of the time.

If we only knew if (Fleet?) was accurate when he said Lizzie said she saw Abby in the guest room that morning.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 5:02 pm

While were at it - we need to see which likely timespan there is for a note to be delivered to the screen door without Lizzie or Bridget seeing the person and without Abby telling Bridget anything about it.

The note story at just the right moment to do exactly what she needed if she were guilty is the one thing that works hardest against me thinking that Lizzie is innocent but scared, defiant, and naive, and she just let one little lie to bolster her alibi spiral out of control as she dug herself a deeper and deeper into a hole during the Inquest. The second one is her immediately saying she heard Abby come home (supposedly with groceries, but not going to the kitchen) immediately after Bridget suggested to go to Mrs. Whitehead's house.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 5:20 pm

officer Wilson stated he was present when Lizzie told Fleet about seeing Abby last in the guest room.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 5:31 pm

Agreed., I believe Fleet was accurate especially since he was verified by Mullaly.
I read your thread a while back. Very interesting about the bed cleaning.
I’m leaning towards the pillow shams conversation never happened between Bridget and Abby in the dining room after Bridget got sick outside.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 5:32 pm

Oops, thanks Cam.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 5:41 pm

From Fleet’s WS
A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did
not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.”

This means there were several visitors Thursday morning.
1) milkman
2) iceman
3) note carrier
4) English speaking visitor

Last two may be fictitious.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Thu Jul 23, 2026 5:44 pm

Strangely both Bridget and Lizzie use 9 o’clock a lot in their timelines.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Sun Jul 26, 2026 5:57 pm

Spencer’s analysis of the pillow sham debacle.

However, I have found no evidence other than Officer Hyde’s notes, that Bridget confirmed the pillow shams event. Spencer also doesn’t give his source for Bridget’s confirmation.
I don’t fault him because he’s in the same boat as us, trying to decipher what is objective truth, and there’s a chance Bridget did confirm it where I haven’t found.
Ultimately Spencer comes to roughly the same time frame we do, though I think we could shift everything back about 10 minutes earlier due to Bridget’s actual testimony.

Page 724 CALB

Lizzie claimed Abby told her the only duty still to be done in the guest room was to put on new pillow shams, and Bridget confirmed this. We know Abby came downstairs to get clean shams, but we are not told where she got them. It is possible that Bridget had washed them and they were on the clothes horse in the kitchen or sitting on the dining room table, as Bridget said she put some clothes there for Lizzie to take upstairs. It might also have been that Abby had to go up to her own bedroom to get them. But, in any case, the shams were in place when Abby's body was found. Whatever the timing, Lizzie knew that Abby would be coming back up to the guest room. All she had to do was lie in wait in her own room, as she certainly would have heard Abby coming up the stairs and going into the adjacent guest room.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Sun Jul 26, 2026 6:48 pm

Let's see if getting the meat for lunch can help narrow timespan windows down. Let's start with Camgarsky's early window for Abby being killed around 9:10 rather than 9:35.

True or Lie from Lizzie:

1. Abby received a note to visit a sick friend.
2. Abby was expecting overnight company on Monday and they would be put in the Guest Room.
3. Abby was going to the market, specifically for meat, as she asked Lizzie which type of meat she wanted for dinner (the noon meal back then).

If Bridget was given instructions to cook a meal only with meat they already had, then #3 might be a lie. If so, what purpose does it serve?
a. Show that Abby and Lizzie were on friendly enough terms and that Abby would ask Lizzie what she wanted to eat.
b. Another reason for Abby to be out of the house.
c. Anything else?

Did anyone in any of the testimony or witness statements follow up on who the supposed overnight visitors were? If that was a lie, what purpose does it serve:
a. Why the door was closed and Lizzie wouldn't have noticed the crime scene even though the sight (stairs) and potentially smell (landing and stairs) of it would be noticeable. Not to mention Lizzie's own bedroom shared a door that was not air tight, so any smell would come through the bottom of the door and the key hole.

If Lizzie lied about all three items, Abby being in that dress, putting on pillow cases fits right in. If all 3 are true then the 9:35 murder time becomes really problematic, because Abby would be choosing to mess with decorative pillowcases that would not be needed for days rather than:

1. Changing her clothes.
2. Visiting her sick friend (I assume with the intention of bringing them food, medicine, or other supplies)
3. Ordering the meat and other groceries.
4. Returning home in time for Bridget to cook the meat for the noon meal.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Sun Jul 26, 2026 7:19 pm

Only 2) is true …possibly.
The purpose of 1 and 3 are related to what I call a “box” of comments used for manipulation. The meat story would account for Abby being unavailable or out of sight.
I don’t believe the meat story of Lizzie’s.

Overnight visitor, helped Lizzie’s intruder defense.

Spencer placed the death of Abby at 9:15, which I did for a long time .
Recently as you know, I’m inclined to shift the time back to about 9:05 or so, based on Bridget’s testimony.

It’s a huge puzzle of events and testimony around the 9 AM timeframe, and one can come to similar times based on what each may consider objective truth in testimony, even when not considering the same testimony as true.

A very interesting aspect in the time we are discussing is covered on pages 730-731 in Spencer’s book.
It covers Lizzie’s statement to Fleet about seeing Abby in the guest room.
Also, it occurs to me that even though Officer John Minnehan had passed away before the trial. he was also present with Charles Wilson who verified Fleets statements.
So we could’ve had two officers who would back up Fleet.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sun Jul 26, 2026 8:12 pm

I think Abby was killed between 9am and 9:10am when Bridget was outside. Even if Bridget didn't talk to Abby or wash dishes after coming in, she did take the time to close the windows and gather her window washing equipment. Based on that, I would guesstimate Lizzie and Bridget's interaction at the screen door as being closer to 9:20.

If you all are thinking the interaction happened at 9:30-9:35, we have a pretty small time gap considering we are basing all our estimates on a bunch time recollections that are not based on actual time checks. Neither Bridget or Lizzie mention checking their watches or a clock during this time frame.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Sun Jul 26, 2026 8:39 pm

Although I have Abby’s demise at 9:05 currently, the most challenging and revealing elements of this who done it, for me personally , are in this time period.
Well, potentially revealing I should say.

1) Condition of guests room door closed/shut
2) Lizzie seeing Abby in guest room (time ?) making bed
3) Knowledge of pillow shams (time?)
4) Lizzie speaks to Abby when she comes down
5) Bridget’s sickness and conversation with Abby (time ?)
6) Lizzie appears at screen door

Cam, if I may:
In my opinion, if true according to Bridget, Lizzie didn’t hook the screen door when she appeared there, it could bolster your theory.
Why hook the screen if Abby was dead?

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sun Jul 26, 2026 9:54 pm

Correct. Bridget made it clear that she had no business in the front section of the second story. So leaving the door unlatched was of no risk to Lizzie. If related to the crime, it might demonstrate that she wasn't worried about Bridget hearing any noises from the second floor. But she definitely wouldn't want to be bothered if Bridget needed back in the house for something besides the water.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Sun Jul 26, 2026 10:54 pm

I haven’t settled on a precise time yet. Assuming Lizzie was guilty, these are the questions I am considering:

Did Lizzie wait for Bridget to start washing the windows? Maybe not.

Her ominous conversation with Alice suggests that she had already decided—or was at least seriously contemplating—killing Abby on Thursday. Yet Bridget had no fixed schedule for washing windows and apparently no regular Thursday duties. Abby even asked what work remained to be done, and Bridget answered that there was nothing beyond the usual first-floor cleaning.

Lizzie therefore could not have known in advance when Andrew or John Morse would leave or return, what chores Abby would assign Bridget, or whether the house would ever be left effectively unobserved. She may have intended to kill Abby at the first viable opportunity, but she had no assurance that Abby would place herself in a vulnerable position. Even knowing Abby would enter the guest room was not enough. Abby might have asked Bridget to go shopping with her or some other 2-person activity right after the pillowcases were done or assigned some other task requiring Bridget to report back quickly to her.

This assumes Lizzie did not intend to kill Bridget unless absolutely necessary. Killing Abby while knowing Bridget might soon look for her would have created an immediate crisis. Lizzie’s only desperate recourse might have been to keep the hatchet nearby, allow Bridget to lead the way upstairs, and attack her from behind.

What I am getting at is that the timing increasingly looks like a convergence of opportunity rather than a fully scripted plan. Abby happened to isolate herself in a room Bridget had no reason to enter, while Bridget was occupied outside long enough for the sick-note story to become plausible.

The alternatives are that Lizzie acted impulsively without considering Bridget, or that she believed she could prevent discovery by directing Bridget’s movements, sending her out, telling her the sick note story, or, in the worst case, killing her too. Had that happened, I suspect Lizzie would have staged a break-in and left the house to shop, establishing witnesses to her absence.

Whatever her contingency plan may have been, I think Lizzie would have preferred to create an alibi involving both herself and Bridget away from the house, rather than kill her father. Once Andrew returned earlier than expected, however, the situation may have become do-or-die for her.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sun Jul 26, 2026 11:50 pm

"Did Lizzie wait for Bridget to start washing the windows? Maybe not."

Perhaps Lizzie thought she had waited for Bridget to start washing the windows. I'm sure Bridget didn't announce that she was heading outside to vomit. At the inquest, Lizzie seemed to have blended Bridget going out to vomit and the Bridget/Lizzie encounter at the screen door. In reality, these two incidents are roughly half hour apart.

Lizzie inquest
Q. Where was your father when you came down Thursday morning?
A. Sitting in the sitting room in his large chair, reading the Providence Journal.
Q. Where was your mother? Do you prefer me to call her Mrs. Borden?
A. I had as soon you called her mother. She was in the dining room with a feather duster dusting.
Q. When she dusted did she wear something over her head?
A. Sometimes when she swept, but not when dusting.
Q. Where was Maggie?
A. Just come in the back door with the long pole, brush, and put the brush on the handle, and getting her pail of water; she was going to wash the windows around the house. She said Mrs. Borden wanted her to.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 1:08 am

You may be on to something Camgarsky...Lizzie might have known Abby was in the guest room and she heard the familiar screen door slam and thought Bridget had left with her hands full with the pail and brush and let the screen slam and quickly made her move up the front stairs without verifying Bridget really just exited to wash the windows, when in reality she made a quick exit to be sick by the pear tree.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 6:33 am

Lizzie’s sighting of Bridget with the brush and pail being mixed with her only visit to breakfast is something many researchers don’t catch.
Bridget didn’t see Lizzie after she got sick, so all interactions happen with Lizzie’s one trip downstairs in my opinion.
All Lizzie and Abby interactions from Bridget’s standpoint happened in Lizzie’s one visit down to breakfast.

Lizzie offers details that some researchers interpret as fact, but could be completely false or the timing may be off.
Abby, in my opinion only went upstairs to the guest room once.
I currently believe the pillow shams story was contrived by Lizzie, and based on Officer Hyde’s statement, was picked up by Bridget and this is similar to what Jennings tried to do with the note.
I haven’t found any other evidence that Bridget confirms the pillow shams second visit to the guest room by Abby.

I think Lizzie could have used any excuse to call Abby to the guest room once, but instead used the pillow shams as the reason.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 7:34 am

Inspector, I'm not totally tracking. What would be the purpose of Lizzie fabricating the added wrinkle of the pillow shams?

What do you mean by "was picked up by Bridget"? Once Lizzie went up to her bedroom (11:50ish), I don't recall any situations that day where Lizzie and Bridget were together while the police were doing their thing.

Bridget testified that Lizzie came down to breakfast/Cellar around 8:50-9am. Bridget then left to vomit.
Bridget testifies a second interaction around 9:20-9:30ish, when Bridget was truly heading out to wash windows.

This trial testimony confirms that Lizzie and Abby had some degree of a chat prior to Bridget getting sick. They talked about something and of all the issues Lizzie said they covered, I think they only discussed cleaning of the guest room.

Bridget Trial Cross-Examination (sorry no page #)
Q. How was it this Thursday morning after they came downstairs?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Didn't they talk in the sitting-room?
A. I heard her talk as she came along.
Q. Who spoke?
A. Miss Lizzie and Mrs. Borden.
Q. Talking in the sitting-room?
A. Mrs. Borden asked some question and she answered very civilly. I don't know
what it was.
Q. Who answered civilly?
A. Miss Lizzie answered.
Q. Answered properly, all right?
A. Yes, sir,
Q. When you heard them talking, they were talking calmly, the same as anybody
else?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. There was not, so far as you knew, any trouble that morning?
A. No, sir, I did not see any trouble with the family.
Q. Where were you at that time?
A. I was in my kitchen.
Q. Was Mr. Borden there at that time?
A. No, sir, I don't think that he was.
Q. He had gone out at that time?
A. No, sir, I don't think he was out; I don't know where he was.
Q. I am talking now of Thursday morning when you heard Mrs. Borden and Lizzie
talking together?
A. Yes, sir.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 11:46 am

The pillow shams being “picked up” by Bridget from Lizzie second hand, not from Abby , and relayed to Officer Hyde, similar to the mysterious note.
I think Bridget picked up the pillow shams information from Lizzie, possibly she overheard Abby and Lizzie speak about them, but the only conversation Bridget recalled involving Abby and Lizzie, happened on Lizzie’s trip down for breakfast and before Bridget got sick.
I can’t find direct testimony from Bridget about pillow cases.
If Bridget did tell Hyde about the shams, it wasn’t from speaking to Lizzie later at the screen door.

My feeling is that Lizzie could’ve used any excuse to call Abby up to the guest room, and it’s the time this happened that is hard to determine.

It’s just odd that Bridget never testified about the pillow cases.
What happened to the dirty ones if they were replaced?
Possibly Abby brought them down and Bridget saw them.
But, I don’t think Abby came into the kitchen while Bridget was in there and before she got sick.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 1:02 pm

One possibility is that Bridget did come into the dining room after being sick, had a brief discussion with Abby, Abby mentioned the pillowcases, and Lizzie was already aware or overheard, and waiting upstairs. Otherwise Lizzie could have been in the parlor, or sitting room listening, then followed Abby up.
This would still place Abby’s death after Bridget came back in from being sick.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 2:45 pm

I may have some of this wrong, but I wanted to run it by you two (or any lurking or future readers).

1. Let's say Morse is right and Abby gave the window washing instruction at breakfast.
2. Let's also say that Camgarsky (and maybe Inspector) are right in that Abby was killed early when Bridget was sick out by the pear tree.
3. Let's say Lizzie saw Bridget at the screen door with the pail and long handled brush, obviously preparing to wash the windows.
4. Now let's have Abby head up to the guest room and Lizzie paying more attention to Abby than Bridget. Lizzie is tracking Abby up the stairs and hears the familiar slap of the screen door and assumes Bridget is going out to wash the windows when she is really rushing out to be sick in the back yard.
5. Now let's say Bridget is under the pear tree near the arbor, perhaps trying to be unobserved as she throws up. This takes 10 to 15 minutes before she feels well enough to come in the house.
6. Bridget comes back into the house and doesn't see anyone. She finishes her dish washing and table prep, still seeing nobody.
7. She goes outside and starts the windows.

Now Bridget is in the situation of having perhaps up to 25 minutes with no alibi. Does Bridget invent the 2nd instruction to wash the windows by Abby in the dining room to protect herself?

There might be testimony to contradict this, but I'm offering it up as a thought exercise in case it opens up some new ideas, even if this idea is wrong.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 4:23 pm

Lorcan -- would you mind reposting how you (or AI) got to the 9:35 time? I'll scrolled up and down and couldn't find.

I think the gap between Bridget coming back inside from being sick to when she and Lizzie interacted at the side door is less than 25 minutes....relatively speaking, perhaps by a decent amount.

I believe all the 9:30ish guesstimate is based on witness's attempts at recalling, but none of them mention checking a watch or clock.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 4:42 pm

That’s a good possibility. Spencer points out that Bridget is certainly wrong about the time when she was given window washing instructions.
Unless John was part of some plans that got crossed, he wouldn’t know about the window washing instructions given after he left, and as Spencer notes, they were completed when he returned.

You are touching on one of the reasons why I’ve tried to track down Bridget confessing the pillow shams, but unless it’s in her missing inquest, Hyde is the best I’ve found.

The fact Bridget spoke about the washing instructions being given after she got sick is one error, and her silence on the pillow shams could indicate another.
Why Bridget never spoke about the shams could be something she held back on purpose, but it’s anyone’s guess as to why.
Of course if Cam is correct, the event never occurred because Abby was deceased already.

If Cam’s thoughts are correct, Bridget was very forgetful, or confused, which I don’t fault her one bit.
The other possibility is that she wasn’t forthcoming with the events, and what she knew transpired with Lizzie and Abby.
It was a most convenient time to get sick, no doubt.
If Abby was killed while Bridget was sick, and Bridget was involved perhaps she didn’t want to be in the house, knowing what was transpiring,
Just some quick thoughts.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 4:49 pm

It was ChatGPT that gave the 9:35, but I asked it to consider if it was possible that a 9:00 - 9:15 window was possible based on the testimony. It responded with:

After rechecking the sequence, I would revise my earlier emphasis: **9:35 is a reasonable estimate for Bridget’s screen-door exchange with Lizzie and the beginning of the window washing—not a firm estimate for Abby’s death.** The direct testimony permits, and probably favors, an earlier killing around **9:05–9:15**.

8:40–8:45 — John Morse leaves.

Morse testified:

“What time did you go away from the house?”

“Well, fifteen or twenty minutes to nine.”

Andrew accompanied him to the screen door.

About 8:45–8:50 — Lizzie comes downstairs.

Bridget testified that Lizzie appeared “no more than five minutes” after Morse left. Bridget was still washing the breakfast dishes. Lizzie obtained coffee and cookies and sat at the kitchen table.

About 8:50–9:05 — Bridget is outside vomiting.

Bridget left Lizzie in the kitchen and went into the yard:

“I may be ten minutes, I may be fifteen; I can’t tell exactly the time.”

That makes a Bridget-absent interval around 8:50–9:05 plausible, although none of its endpoints is exact.

About 9:00–9:10 — Bridget returns and sees Abby alive.

After returning, Bridget finished the remaining dishes, carried them into the dining room and encountered Abby dusting. Abby told her to wash the windows.

Asked when this occurred, Bridget said:

“Well, I can’t exactly tell the time, but I think it was about nine o’clock.”

She said this was the last time she saw Abby alive:

“I didn’t see her any more until I found her dead upstairs.”

Lizzie independently placed Abby’s final activity at approximately the same time:

“She said she had made the bed, and was going to put on the pillow cases, about 9 o’clock.”

According to Lizzie, the guest-room bed was already made; only the pillowcases remained.

Therefore, a killing around 9:05–9:15 works quite well:

* Morse and Andrew have left or are leaving.
* Bridget is outside sick or has only just returned.
* Abby goes upstairs for a brief final task.
* Lizzie is not being observed.
* Abby is never seen alive again.

Why does 9:30–9:35 keep appearing?

At the preliminary hearing, Bridget said that after Abby ordered the windows washed, she did not immediately collect the equipment:

“How soon?”

“About forty minutes, or half an hour after.”

She explained:

“I always put away the dining room dishes first, then I had a good deal to do to straighten my kitchen, and to put everything in the closet, and straighten my stove.”

After that, she went downstairs for the pail, obtained the brush and encountered Lizzie at the screen door.

If Abby gave the order around 9:00, that places:

9:30–9:40 — Bridget gets the pail and brush, speaks to Lizzie at the screen door and begins the window work.

The important distinction is:

**Nothing in Bridget’s testimony says Abby remained alive during those thirty or forty minutes.** Abby had already disappeared after giving the order. The later interval dates Bridget’s preparations and the screen-door encounter, not Abby’s death.

The prosecution helped establish the traditional 9:30 time. Moody told the jury in his opening that Abby went upstairs “not far from half past nine o’clock,” and Knowlton later argued:

“At half past nine, if we are to believe the consensus of all this testimony, the assassin met her in that room.”

Those were prosecutorial reconstructions, not eyewitness clock readings.

The medical testimony does not decide between the two. Professor Wood estimated approximately an hour and a half between the deaths, allowing half an hour either way. On cross-examination, he conceded that, with Andrew dying around eleven, Abby might have died at either nine or ten.

My revised assessment:

* **Broad defensible range:** about 9:00–9:35.
* **Best fit from direct witness sequence:** about 9:05–9:15.
* **9:30–9:35:** possible, but derived mainly from the later window-washing chronology and the prosecution’s reconstruction.
* **There is no testimony establishing that Abby was alive at 9:30 or 9:35.**

The earlier window also has a practical advantage: it places the attack during Bridget’s absence in the yard or immediately after her return, before the two women’s screen-door encounter created a greater risk of interruption.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 5:18 pm

Back-calculating from the banks, the route, and the household sequence puts Andrew’s departure very close to 9:00 a.m., probably around 8:55–9:05.

Strongest anchors
8:40–8:45 — Morse leaves.

Morse testified:

Q. “What time did you go away from the house on the Thursday morning?”
A. “Well, fifteen or twenty minutes to nine.”
Andrew accompanied Morse to the side door and hooked it after him.
Roughly 8:45–9:05 — Andrew goes upstairs and leaves while Bridget is outside.

After Morse left, Bridget saw Andrew clean his teeth, fill a bowl with water, take his bedroom key and go upstairs. Bridget went into the yard five or ten minutes after Morse left and remained there approximately ten or fifteen minutes. When she returned, Andrew was gone. Bridget’s sequence therefore independently places his departure during approximately:

8:50–9:05
She later saw Abby alive in the dining room after finishing the remaining dishes.
“Somewhere near nine” — Churchill sees Andrew at the steps.

Mrs. Churchill testified:

Q. “Are you able to tell us about what time you saw Mr. Borden there on the side of the steps?”
A. “I should think somewhere near nine o’clock.”
She placed him near the east post, toward the barn, apparently immediately before his downtown walk.
About 9:30 — Andrew reaches Union Savings Bank.

Abraham Hart testified:

“He came into the bank as was his usual custom in the morning about half past nine. It wouldn’t vary but a few minutes from that time, I think.”
On cross-examination Hart said he did not think the time varied five minutes from 9:30.
About 9:45 — Andrew reaches First National Bank.

Everett Cook had the stronger clock-based recollection:

Q. “What time did he come in?”
A. “About quarter of ten.”
Cook had glanced at the bank clock. Andrew remained about ten minutes and left around 9:55.
Back-calculating the errands
The Borden house was approximately 900 feet from City Hall, with Union Savings only a few rods farther north. A direct walk to the bank would take only about four to six minutes.
But the reconstructed route places Andrew at:

the barber;
the Post Office;
Union Savings around 9:30.
Allowing approximately:
8–12 minutes total walking along that indirect route;
10–15 minutes for a shave;
2–5 minutes at the Post Office;
gives roughly 20–30 minutes before the 9:30 bank arrival.
That produces:

Estimated departure: approximately 9:00–9:10, with about 9:00–9:05 the best fit.
One caution: the barber stop is represented on the later route map, but I have not found Pierre Leduc’s barber visit established by sworn testimony in the trial, inquest or preliminary-hearing materials. It should be treated as probable historical reconstruction rather than a hard evidentiary anchor. The Post Office visit is better supported because Lizzie said Andrew mailed her letter.

Bridget goes outside sick.
Andrew leaves during her absence.
Bridget returns and sees Abby alive in the dining room.
Abby instructs her to wash the windows.
Abby disappears upstairs and is never seen alive again.

Therefore, if Bridget’s order of events is substantially correct, Abby was definitely alive after Andrew had left. That places the earliest practical killing shortly afterward:

Andrew leaves: about 8:55–9:05
Bridget sees Abby alive: about 9:00–9:10
Best early murder window: about 9:05–9:15

This is a cleaner fit than placing the murder while Bridget was vomiting, because Bridget says she saw and spoke with Abby after she returned from the yard. The vomiting interval may have provided Lizzie privacy to prepare or verify that Andrew was leaving, but Bridget’s testimony argues that Abby was not killed until after that interval.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 5:47 pm

Some of our problems are that we don’t know

if Abby actually came back downstairs, all we have is Lizzie giving a reason for her coming downstairs after making the bed.

Lizzie (I believe) did tell Fleet she saw Abby making the bed, and Spencer showed good reason too.

If Lizzie needed Abby in the guest room while she (Lizzie) was coming down, how would she depend on Abby returning a second time. Perhaps she made up the pillow case story for a reason to have Abby up there, or perhaps when Lizzie saw Abby in the guest room Andrew hadn’t quite left yet, so she had to wait a bit. contrived a reason to call Abby back up, that she never shared.(The pillow shams were innocent enough to share.)

I feel that whatever time Andrew came through the kitchen to leave, Lizzie saw him, and went to Abby. Lizzie was eating her breakfast when Andrew left, if we believe Bridget’s testimony.

Interesting to note is how Andrew paused at the back steps as if he heard something, or perhaps he saw Bridget.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 6:31 pm

Consider some of the things Lizzie said at her Inquest.

Lizzie says Bridget was already coming in with her window washing equipment when she (Lizzie) came down for breakfast
This contradicts Bridget’s testimony that she was given window washing instructions after she got sick.

Lizzie says the breakfast things were already put away—-whatever that means.
The breakfast things shouldn’t have been put away, even after Bridget came back from vomiting she still stated the dishes were not finished.

Lizzie stated she was ironing in the dining room about the time Andrew left.
Bridget testified that Lizzie brought the ironing board in the dining room after Andrew returned home.

Lizzie seems to say she was in the dining room ironing and spoke to Abby,
Bridget would be coming in after getting sick, and still trying to get the dining room dishes replaced, while Lizzie is ironing there.

Lizzie and Bridget seem to place themselves in the dining room. speaking to Abby, but their stories don’t jive .

Lizzie gives information that happened later, such as ironing, and seeing Bridget with window washing equipment.

Bridget gives a conversation with Abby about receiving the window washing instructions at this critical time in the dining room, that appears to have happened before Morse left.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 6:38 pm

Here is the section

Where was your father when you came down Thursday morning?
A. Sitting in the sitting room in his large chair, reading the Providence Journal.
Q. Where was your mother? Do you prefer me to call her Mrs. Borden?
A. I had as soon you called her mother. She was in the dining room with a feather duster
dusting.
Q. When she dusted did she wear something over her head?
A. Sometimes when she swept, but not when dusting.
Q. Where was Maggie?
A. Just come in the back door with the long pole, brush, and put the brush on the handle, and
getting her pail of water; she was going to wash the windows around the house. She said Mrs.
Borden wanted her to.
Q. Did you get your breakfast that morning?
A. I did not eat any breakfast; I did not feel as though I wanted any.
Q. Did you get any breakfast that morning?
59 (16)
A. I don't know whether I ate half a banana; I don't think I did.
Q. You drank no tea or coffee that morning?
A. No sir.
Q. And ate no cookies?
A. I don't know whether I did or not. We had some molasses cookies; I don't know whether I ate
any that morning or not.
Q. Were the breakfast things put away when you got down?
A. Everything except the coffee pot; I am not sure whether that was on the stove or not.
Q. You said nothing about Mr. Morse to your father or mother?
A. No sir.
Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said
he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some
handkerchiefs to iron.
Q. Tell me again what time you came down stairs.
A. It was a little before nine, I should say about quarter; I don't know sure.
Q. Did your father go down town?
A. He went down later.
Q. What time did he start away?
A. I don't know.
Q. What were you doing when he started away?
A. I was in the dining room I think; yes, I had just commenced, I think, to iron.
Q. It may seem a foolish question. How much of an ironing did you have?
A. I only had about eight or ten of my best handkerchiefs.
Q. Did you let your father out?
A. No sir; he went out himself.
Q. Did you fasten the door after him?
A. No sir.
Q. Did Maggie?
A. I don't know. When she went up stairs she always locked the door; she had charge of the back
door.
Q. Did she go out after a brush before your father went away?
A. I think so.
Q. Did you say anything to Maggie?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you say anything about washing the windows?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you speak to her?
A. I think I told her I did not want any breakfast.
Q. You do not remember of talking about washing the windows?
A. I don't remember whether I did or not; I don't remember it. Yes, I remember; yes, I asked her
to shut the parlor blinds when she got through, because the sun was so hot.
Q. About what time do you think your father went down town?
60 (17)
A. I don't know; it must have been after nine o'clock. I don't know w

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 7:08 pm

It's not exactly new info and many people pointed it out, but Lizzie commenced to iron twice and still only managed a portion of the 6 to 8 handkerchiefs. Plus she moved her ironing board from the kitchen to the dining room.

The issue I see is if the irons were hot enough to do 1 handkerchief, the set on the stove would have seen her able to do 9 - 12 of them. Spencer talks about irons being barely hot enough, but I think the irons were hot enough because Alice separated all the ironed ones from those left to dry after sprinkling. If any of the "ironed" handkerchiefs were not properly ironed, she probably would have simply added it to the pile to do later. Lizzie had been ironing handkercheifs for 20+ years by then, she would know instantly if they were behaving well. I can't think of a truly realistic scenario where she can iron 4 or 5 handkerchiefs to Alice's approval and not the rest since you get 2 or 3 handkerchiefs per flat iron heat cycle. Spencer does make a case, but I don't buy it. I think if the iron was that close to not being hot enough, she just puts it off for Bridget to fix the fire as she did. They weren't mission critical and Lizzie was fine doing other things not too concerned about completing her ironing. Reading a magazine, contemplating reading a newspaper, addressing newspaper labels, looking for lead, looking for tin or iron, eating pears, observing the birdhouse.

Alice Russell
Q. Did you see any handkerchiefs about there?
A. I found some handkerchiefs in the dining room.
Q. Had they been ironed?
A. Some of them.
Q. And some, I infer, had not been from your answer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the condition of those that had not been ironed?
A. They were sprinkled to iron.
Q. About how many were there altogether?
A. I don't know positively.
Q. I am not very particular---about how many?
A. After hearing about handkerchiefs I tried to remember, and as nearly as I could judge there were four or five ironed and two or three sprinkled to be ironed.
Q. There were some of both?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember what became of them?
A. I took them upstairs and as I went in Miss Lizzie said, "Oh, yes, those are what I was ironing."
Q. What was done with them?
A. I said, "What shall I do with these? and she said, "Lay them in this drawer," and I took those that were sprinkled and lay them over Miss Emma's towel rack to dry.
Q. When you say they were sprinkled, that is the ordinary process in house-keeping when getting ready to iron?
A. Yes, sir.

Knowlton and Lizzie discussing a time around 9:00AM

Q. What were you doing when he started away?
A. I was in the dining room I think; yes, I had just commenced, I think, to iron.

Now Moody and Bridget discussing a time around 10:45AM
Q. What is the next thing that happened?
A. The next thing I remember, Mr. Borden went out in the kitchen and come in the kitchen door, come from the kitchen into the sitting room and took a key off the mantel piece and went up stairs to his room.
Q. What key was it that he took?
A. The key of his bedroom door.
Q. And what stairs did he go up?
A. The back stairs.
Q. What is the next thing that you did?
A. Well, as Mr. Borden come down stairs, I was completed in the sitting room, and taking my water and taking the hand basin and step ladder into the dining room. As I got in there he pulled a rocking chair and sat down in the rocking chair near the window and let down the window, as I left it up when I got through.
Q. Sat in a rocking chair in which room?
A. The sitting room.
Q. As he sat down in the sitting room, what did you begin to do?
A. I began to wash the dining room windows.
Q. At the time that he came down and you were passing from the sitting room to the dining room, was Miss Lizzie Borden there then?
A. I don't remember to see her.
Q. You began washing your two windows in the dining room, did you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. While you were washing those windows did any one appear in the dining room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was it?
A. Miss Lizzie.
Q. From what room did she appear? Through what door did she appear?
A. She came in from the sitting room into the dining room.
Q. Will you state what she did after she came in?
A. She came into the dining room, went out in the kitchen and took an ironing board and placed it on the dining room table and commenced to iron.

For reference:

1. Total Time for 10 Handkerchiefs

Actual Pressing Time: About 10 to 15 minutes of continuous work (roughly 1 to 1.5 minutes per handkerchief).
Total End-to-End Time: Roughly 20 to 25 minutes.

This includes the time spent walking back and forth to the stove, testing the iron temperature on a rag, swapping irons, and lightly folding each finished handkerchief.

2. How Many Iron Flats Were Needed?

A person ironing 10 handkerchiefs would ideally use a set of at least 2 to 3 iron flats (often called sadirons). Even though handkerchiefs are small and cool an iron down much slower than a large sheet or tablecloth, a single sadiron would still lose its optimal heat after a few minutes. Having a rotation allowed the user to swap out a cooling iron for a blazing hot one without stopping workflow.

3. How Many Irons Were Typically Heated Together on a Stove?

In a typical household kitchen: Usually 3 to 4 irons (and frequently a detachable handle, popularized by Mary Florence Potts in the late 19th century) were crowded onto the top of a wood- or coal-burning kitchen range.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 7:28 pm

Inspector - I posted earlier in this thread Bridget's testimony of hearing Lizzie and Abby converse in the dining room as Lizzie made her initial descent to the first floor. That seems to confirm that Abby did come down from the guest room at some point. To be killed up there must mean she returned for a second time.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 7:37 pm

I heavily revised my ironing post above. I know you might argue Spencer's point, but if you read the current version, you'll have a better idea of where I'm coming from. Big hole in the timeline is 9:00 vs 10:45 if Lizzie only commenced ironing once, or a huge mystery why she only could iron 5 of them with a minimum of 6 to 8 flat irons (3 or likely 4 heated on the stove, twice) and 20+ years of experience ironing. That should have given her enough heat to iron 2 to 3 times the number of handkerchiefs she ironed.

It's not that I totally discount Spencer's theory that they were just barely hot enough, but the odds are very low that Lizzie wouldn't immediately realize it and just give up and wait for Bridget. It doesn't fit the personality. I base this on Alice approving of 5 of them as ironed. If they were flawed why not just put them in the to do pile. They had Lizzie, Alice, Emma, all who could iron them to pass the time being stuck in that house after the murders.

Inspector · Post by **Inspector** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 8:44 pm

Cam, the problem I have with Abby coming down from the guest room and returning to be murdered, is that Lizzie stated that Abby was in the dining room when she came down for breakfast.
At Lizzie’s inquest she states she didn’t see Abby again after the dining room. Inquest 64/21
Yes, Bridget did over hear part of their discussion as Lizzie proceeded to breakfast.
Lizzie then goes to the kitchen.

However as Spencer points out on page 730,
Fleet testified this: PH 351/361
Q. Did she say anything to you about when she last saw Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes, I asked her when she saw Mrs. Borden last. She said the last time that she saw her was about 9 o’clock that morning, when she was going downstairs,” where did you see her then?” “I saw her in the room, where she was found murdered.”
Fleet added that Lizzie said she was fixing the bed when she saw her last.

Spencer points out also that only Lizzie mentions Abby saying anything about making the bed .
This leads me to believe the pillow shams addition is not real.

Lizzie said she didn’t see Abby when she (Lizzie) went up for a short period of time, so Lizzie had no way of knowing of Abby being in the guest room before the body was discovered.

Lizzie did see Abby in the guest room, but slipped up when she told Fleet and didn’t repeat it at her inquest.

Spencer also points this out on page 731

Those who felt someone other than Lizzie committed the murders suggest that the intruder closed the door after committing the crime. But in any case, we know that when Mrs. Churchill and Bridget Sullivan went upstairs, the door was wide open. If an intruder committed the crimes, there are two possibilities. The first is that he was hiding in the guest room, with Abby obviously already dead. But, upon leaving, he would surely again close the door so that no one going up the stairs would see the body and thus expose his deed. The second is that he had already left the guest room. But, in that case, who subsequently opened the door? Also note that Lizzie's testimony indicates she spoke to Abby after Abby closed the guest room door. But since Lizzie claimed she spoke to Abby only in the dining room, that statement attributed to Abby means the door was closed when Lizzie first came downstairs. That contradicts her earlier statement to Fleet, made only an hour or so after Andrew's murder was discovered, that she saw Abby in the guest room when she first went downstairs Thursday morning.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 9:22 pm

Copied from Inspector's last post....
Cam, the problem I have with Abby coming down from the guest room and returning to be murdered, is that Lizzie stated that Abby was in the dining room when she came down for breakfast.
At Lizzie’s inquest she states she didn’t see Abby again after the dining room. Inquest 64/21
Yes, Bridget did over hear part of their discussion as Lizzie proceeded to breakfast.
Lizzie then goes to the kitchen.

I'm sorry for being slow on this....I don't see anything in your post that creates doubt about Abby coming down and going back up. I'm sure its right in front of me, but I'm missing it.

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 10:13 pm

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding Inspector's scenarios, too. When you have time, Inspector, please answer the following:

1. Do you believe Lizzie really saw Abby in the guest room while Lizzie was coming downstairs?

2a. After that sighting, do you believe Abby ever came downstairs again?
2b. If no, do you believe Lizzie’s later statement that Abby was dusting in the dining room was false?

3a. Do you believe the pillow-sham trip downstairs never happened at all?
3b. If so, how do you explain Hyde recording that Bridget said Abby came downstairs for the shams?

4. What exact sequence do you believe happened, from Abby first going upstairs until her death?

Lorcan · Post by **Lorcan** » Mon Jul 27, 2026 10:59 pm

I'm thinking we can go off of Morse for the first visit to the guest room to make the bed.

Breakfast completed: about 7:30–7:45

Abby dusting downstairs after breakfast: sometime between approximately 7:30 and 8:30

Morse’s final sighting: front hall, about 8:20–8:30

Bridget’s final sighting: dining-room doorway, approximately 8:55–9:05, with Bridget herself saying “about nine”

The bed making back in 1892 was about 15 - 20 minutes of work, so I think we have:

Abby goes upstairs to make the guest room bed at 8:25.

Morse leaves at 8:45

Lizzie goes downstairs with her letter for Emma as soon as Morse leaves. Lizzie sees Abby in the guest room before going downstairs.

Lizzie asks Andrew to mail the letter, has breakfast, etc.

Abby comes back downstairs and mentions the room is done except for the pillow shams?